Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 92700 times)

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8632
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #195 on: April 14, 2016, 11:38:04 PM »
Superior transonic acceleration and inferior supersonic acceleration could be due to issues associated with the divertless supersonic inlets.

Just beware making comparisons between old things like the F-15. You aren't comparing like with like. Intake design I think is a profoundly difficult design challenge, especially to also make it stealthy and light. F-15s, Concorde etc. have much more aerodynamically commodious intakes but a lot of mechanical complexity to achieve that. That's expensive, heavy, high maintenance. Plus the engine face and other shiny things are positively glowing on your enemy's radar. Oh look, we're going to be attacked in twenty-five minutes, lolz. This could be the performance limitation for the F-35 due to other design choices.

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #196 on: April 15, 2016, 11:45:21 AM »
The F-18C has a top speed in airshow-mode of Mach 1.8.

What is "air show mode"?

Again, are your speed info for the F-18C based on a chart of a F-18E?

That particular chart has no mention of pylons for the F-18E, is that mentioned somewhere else in the document?
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline LCADolby

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7473
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #197 on: April 15, 2016, 01:20:37 PM »
This "Dolby" guy is an imposter  :old:
JG5 "Eismeer"
YouTube+Twitch - 20Dolby10

MW148 LW301
"BE a man and shoot me in the back" - pez

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #198 on: April 15, 2016, 01:47:53 PM »
What is "air show mode"?

Again, are your speed info for the F-18C based on a chart of a F-18E?

That particular chart has no mention of pylons for the F-18E, is that mentioned somewhere else in the document?

I'm sorry, I'm done trying to prove stuff to you. If you want to refute something I've posted find your own documentation. Or don't. I don't care.


This "Dolby" guy is an imposter  :old:

 :rofl :aok
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #199 on: April 15, 2016, 02:05:45 PM »
I'm sorry, I'm done trying to prove stuff to you. If you want to refute something I've posted find your own documentation. Or don't. I don't care.

Ok, so the F-18c performance was just your own speculation, gotcha.

But you do that a lot. Lot of arguments and very little in the way of facts behind them. :)
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #200 on: April 15, 2016, 02:13:54 PM »
Welcome to my ignore list Wmaker.  :aok
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Gman

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3748
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #201 on: April 15, 2016, 05:06:06 PM »
Some news, more good than bad, that the USAF will have a squadron ready for initial combat ops before 2016 is over, at least that's their claim for now.  Maybe we'll see how it does at Red Flag in 2017, or other exercises before that.

http://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/air-force-says-an-f-35-squadron-will-be-combat-ready-in-2016

Quote
The U.S. Air Force says it will have an initial squadron of  F-35 fighters ready for combat by the end of 2016.  The commanders of the USAF’s Air Combat Command and Air Force Materiel Command reviewed the milestones in the $379 billion weapons program last week and reported their findings to the Pentagon.


There are lingering doubts that the development of the plane’s computer logistics system, called Autonomic Logistics Information System, was on schedule. The complex system, according to military planners, required extra “focus” for the program.

“The actual plane is on schedule and doing well,” Colonel Tad Sholtis, spokesman for Air Combat Command, told reporters on April 13. “The Air Force expects to meet its target window of August through December for declaring an initial operational capability.”

The Air Force says the F-35’s performance exceeds expectations of pilots, but that they are continuing to compare the fighter to other, older aircraft. Sholtis added that the fighter was strong in some areas and less strong in other, but only by fielding the plane to familiarize airmen with the plane and its workings could they fully exploit the F-35’s capabilities.


“We anticipate that side-by-side, air-to-air and air-to-ground tests will be illustrative of the fifth generation fighter’s advanced interdiction capabilities,” Sholtis said. “This aircraft is built to go where legacy platforms cannot.”

I'll be really happy if the initial reports on this initially ready squadron from a large EX come back with rave reviews, and that it dominates Red Air and strikes all its targets.  Time's going to tell, one way or the other.  I'll bet they put up this F35 squadron, or at least elements of it, against simulated Su27, Su30, Su35, J11, J10, even J20 and other Chinese Stealth fighters (all 4 of them) attacks, without support from other airframes.  THIS will be the most telling and important exercise, as the USAF can always do the "hedge" thing they have been, saying "it's just a striker, the F22/etc are for air cover/anti fighter ops," where as the Allied nations buying the F35 to do everything including air defense, will have to COUNT on the F35 winning vs the above threats.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 05:11:26 PM by Gman »

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #202 on: April 16, 2016, 10:30:45 AM »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline DaveBB

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1356
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #203 on: April 16, 2016, 05:20:17 PM »
Probably the biggest factor in the continuation of WVR aerial combat is actually identifying the enemy.  The Israelis, who have far more air-to-air kills in the F-15 and F-16 than anyone else, have done it only with WVR combat.

The Vietnam missile problem was worked out.  I've read a few books on it. It wasn't the missiles, it was mainly the pilots firing them outside of the firing parameters.  And of course later on some F-4s went on to shoot down some F-105s BVR and the ROE went back to WVR.

Currently ignoring Vraciu as he is a whoopeeed retard.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #204 on: April 17, 2016, 03:00:43 AM »
Probably the biggest factor in the continuation of WVR aerial combat is actually identifying the enemy.  The Israelis, who have far more air-to-air kills in the F-15 and F-16 than anyone else, have done it only with WVR combat.

The Vietnam missile problem was worked out.  I've read a few books on it. It wasn't the missiles, it was mainly the pilots firing them outside of the firing parameters.  And of course later on some F-4s went on to shoot down some F-105s BVR and the ROE went back to WVR.
the biggest factor in the continuation of WVR air combat is that fights do not start with planes 50 miles apart in an othwise empty airspace.

In addition, missiles were missing their mark in 1980s, not just in the vietnam war. radar missiles are particularily vulnerable to various counter measures. Sure, missiles improved, but so did the countermeasures. IR missiles are currently perhaps overtaking their countermeasures, but that may not last forever. The balance between missiles and countermeasures cannot be simulated. Only a real air war will tell us where it's at - and franckly, I do not want to find out.
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline shift8

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 196
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #205 on: April 17, 2016, 09:16:24 AM »
A great many of you have some very funny concepts of how these modern airplanes perform. Do us all a favor please and get a copy of a F-16 or F-15 -1 and read it through before posting any more one how these planes perform with stores on. You can get these rather easily on the internet.

Then you need to go out and get a copy of Falcon BMS or something similar and try to chase down a enemy plane that starts even as little as 10nm at full burner while carrying stores. Even without carry stores. Or you could just do that math and figure it out. News Flash: In a tail chase, no Su-30 or F-18 etc carry stores is going to easily (if at all) run down a clean F-35 regardless of altitude. Assuming you have a typical stores load, you dont have a chance in hell of keeping up. If you were light on stores or clean, you are going to take freaking FOREVER to get close enough to a fleeing F-35 to fire a missile. This entire time you will be consuming GOBS and GOBS of fuel and the F-35 will be retreating further and further into friendly airspace most likely. That means you might have limited to space to chase him until you hit either more enemy planes or SAMs etc. Missile range in a tail chase is several orders of magnitude less than it is tail aspect than it is head on or from the side. A missile that could reach out 12nm  at SL launched from mach 1 might only have a range of 5nm. Even less if the bandit is hauling ass.

As for missile effectiveness in general, BVR  is order of the day. PERIOD. BVR was already effective in 1991 and the stuff that we have now is far superior. Data Links, improvements to IFF, and better radar have mad PID of targets more or less a certainty at this point. AND no, counter measures have not just kept right along. There are physics limits to what can and cannot be done with CM. GScholtz has already posted imaged of focal plane array IR sensors.  Chaff rejection in the AIM-120 once it enters MPRF mode during its terminal phase is nearly 100%. And even it it were not: Chaff only works when it is properly dispensed. And I got that information directly from a certain horses mouth. A horse that has fired said missile.

There is alot of information about modern aviation available, but you will have to DIG to get it. 90% of the stuff you read from a simple google search is either pure rubbish or is take out of context.

So here are a few things that everyone here needs to acknowledge here.

1. Stealth works.
2. BVR is the order of the Day.
3. Situation Awareness will trump kinematics 90% of the time.
4.A F-35 will be clean against 4th gen fighters that are not.
5. WVR combat is now so lethal that coming to a merge is a crap shoot that most likely results in mutual annihilation.

Sorry for the tone of this post. But (some) of you sound like you walked in here after reading 25 "war is boring" articles that you topped off with RAND's Pacific Defense review, and a AIDS inducing amount of Dr. Karlo Kopp.

Offline shift8

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 196
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #206 on: April 17, 2016, 09:57:33 AM »
the biggest factor in the continuation of WVR air combat is that fights do not start with planes 50 miles apart in an othwise empty airspace.

In addition, missiles were missing their mark in 1980s, not just in the vietnam war. radar missiles are particularily vulnerable to various counter measures. Sure, missiles improved, but so did the countermeasures. IR missiles are currently perhaps overtaking their countermeasures, but that may not last forever. The balance between missiles and countermeasures cannot be simulated. Only a real air war will tell us where it's at - and franckly, I do not want to find out.

Missiles not hitting targets is not in and off itself a measure of their effectiveness. Just like how the number of bullets fired per kill is not a measure of a guns effectiveness. From the 80's onward the proportion of BVR to WVR kills has been on the rise. This was with war where the ROE was nonsensically restrictive, such as in 1991. VID requirements were a thing in some scenarios only because the insane level of superiority of the USAF meant that taking some extra measures to prevent FF actually made sense. In a peer conflict, such luxury would neither be practical or beneficial. And today, IFF is much much much easier.

A Radar missile is NOT easy to spoof it it is properly employed. You have 3 basic ways to beating it: maneuver, chaff, or a notch.  Maneuver will only work if you are far enough away. The closer you are and the slower you are, the harder this will be. Once inside RTR range, you would be VERY hard pressed to kinetically defeat a AMRAAM. Chaff rejection on modern Active missiles is extremely good, and can be EASILY upgraded to counter any new threats. Notching is already very difficult even against legacy radars, and when you throw in data links and AESA, nearly impossible.

If you shoot a AMRAAM at someone he does not know you have launched. You will not get a warning until the missile goes pitbull and your RWR picks up the missiles active seeker. At that point the missile is only about 8nm out. You will have very little time to defeat it, and most RWR's only show the compass direction of the threat, so you wont know if its coming from above or below etc. This means that you will have a hard time employing chaff properly, or in sufficient quantities before you are hit.

With a stealth plane the problem gets even more crazy. He sees you first from long range. He uses this SA to stay out any potential sensor coverage and closes in very close. When he shoots, he might be only 10nm away. If you get fired on from a AMRAAM from a mere 10nm, you are basically a dead man.

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3077
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #207 on: April 17, 2016, 10:01:00 AM »
ECM also works..
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline USCH

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1713
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #208 on: April 17, 2016, 10:09:59 AM »
I miss John  :(

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #209 on: April 17, 2016, 10:38:47 AM »
Some people can't get their heads out of Vietnam it seems. By the late '80s BVR was already dominant, both doctrinal and in practice. IFF systems have vastly reduced the risk of friendly fire in BVR situations. In 1991 it was put to the test and most air-to-air kills in that war was with BVR missiles, even those fired by the Iraqi air force.

A2A victories in chronological order: (BVR missiles in bold.)

US F-15Cs shoot down two MiG-29 and three Mirage F1 in two separate engagements. All with AIM-7 missiles.

Iraqi MiG-25s engage a flight of F/A-18Cs with R-40 missiles scoring one kill.

US F/A-18s shoot down two MiG-21s. One with AIM-7 and the other with AIM-9.

US EF-111 scored a maneuver kill on a Mirage F1.

Iraqi MiG-23 damage two F-111 with R24 missiles.

Iraqi MiG-29 damage one F-111 with an R60 missile and a B-52 with an R27 missile.

US F-15Cs shoot down two MiG-29s with one AIM-7 and one AIM-9. After the first MiG was killed the IFF malfunctioned in Rodriguez's F-15C. The Americans initially thought they had shot down a coalition aircraft and held their fire allowing the second MiG to engage them in a dogfight. An AIM-9 ended that dogfight.

US F-15Cs shoot down two Mirage F1s with AIM-7 missiles.

Saudi F-15Cs shoot down two Mirage F1 with AIM-9 missiles.

US F-15Cs kill three MiG-23s with AIM-7 missiles.

US F-15Cs shoots down three MiG-23 and one Mirage F1 trying to flee to Iran. They used an unspecified mix of AIM-7 and AIM-9 missiles.

US F-15C kills a MiG-23 with an AIM-7.

Another US F-15C kills a MiG-23 with AIM-7.

A lone US F-15C kills two MiG-21s with AIM-7 missiles after they both engage him. These MiGs were escorting Su-25s and the F-15 gives chase and shoots down both with AIM-9 missiles.

US A-10 shoots down an Iraqi Bo-105 helicopter using its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

US F-14 kills a Mi-8 helicopter with an AIM-9 missile.

US F-15Cs shoot down two Su-22s and one Su-7 as they attempt to flee to Iran. All with AIM-7 missiles.

US F-15C shoots down a Mi-24 gunship with an AIM-7 missile.

US F-15Cs kill two unidentified Iraqi helicopters by using AIM-7 missiles.

US F-15E Strike Eagle dropped a laser-guided bomb onto a Hughes 500 helicopter in the air. (Ouch!)

US A-10A shoots down Mi-8 helicopter with its GAU-8 30mm cannon.

And that concludes the A2A kills of the 1991 Gulf War.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."