Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 92702 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #225 on: April 17, 2016, 09:54:55 PM »
There are a whole lot of dismissive remarks in these posts. Namely "if you havent done it you wont know what im talking about"   Care to actually explain? So far your havent given me a good reason to take your word over many people who have given me far more specific reasons to believe theirs.

Meet me in a SCIF with your JPAS printout and I'd be happy to clarify, with diagrams.  I'm not a WIC grad so I only use 4 colors, but with a big enough whiteboard I'm sure I can make do.  Can't talk stealth though.  You'll notice I don't even mention specific aviation week articles, 'cause I *can't*, and neither can anyone else who has even briefly touched that world.

I will say that I spent some time as my squadron's red-air-b***ch, and when flying with our squadron's other perpetual red-air guy (a 20 yr captain who actively resisted any sort of upgrade program), I got pretty good at reliably defeating or disrupting pretty much our entire playbook.  You can't possibly get that without reading stuff you simply won't find anywhere (although Robert Shaw's book Fighter Combat is pretty darn good), and reading it doesn't help understanding it until you go out and do it a couple hundred times.  And at that point you can't give any details, which is why I hang out in a WWII game forum instead of a modern fighter forum where I can't say much.
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #226 on: April 17, 2016, 10:39:07 PM »
Eagle, why should I take your word over Dolby's?
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #227 on: April 17, 2016, 11:30:39 PM »
Eagle, why should I take your word over Dolby's?

Because I have no idea what I am jabbering on about  :old:
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #228 on: April 18, 2016, 12:33:02 AM »
Wow this thread delivers! Nothing like an argument to get a broad spectrum of opinion.


The Raptor is an extension of a correct mentality that weapons systems should be designed to cover every contingency to a extreme degree.

Ah I see. Interesting. So in a way you're saying since the rest of the performance was so far above everything else you might as well have TV as well. And the performance is especially provided by going very fast efficiently. I presume supersonic manoeuvring is very much limited by pilot G. There are some stealth implications of manoeuvring without moving surfaces, correct?


You can't find the requisite info to intelligently discuss it on the internet or in commercial circulation no matter how hard you look, unless you take a fairly specific set of courses at a limited number of universities, and even then you won't know anything about the tactical implications.  If you possessed that info, you wouldn't be discussing it anyhow.

You're right about the tactical information Eagl, that's not even easily inferred. However I don't want to alarm you chaps in your locked bunker but stealth technology isn't that complex to work out. There's a couple of essential scientific papers which if you read a couple of times and especially look at 5 gen aircraft to see how it's applied you very quickly put the design possibilities and restrictions together. With radar only the other way of course is to look at radar reflectors and then do the opposite  :rofl  Us non-bunker people and academics not working in that field don't have the test equipment of course (although I do have a microwave oven) but that's a refinement level really. Principals are known.

Supersonic intake design, now that's a really tricky one. I'm twenty papers in with six months part-time work and still solutions are not intuitive.

Without divulging and classified information can I ask you one question though? Do you have a lift like in 'Spies Like Us'?  :banana:


Because I have no idea what I am jabbering on about  :old:

Standard.


« Last Edit: April 18, 2016, 12:41:50 AM by nrshida »
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Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #229 on: April 18, 2016, 12:41:04 AM »
Eagle, why should I take your word over Dolby's?

Because I'm an eagle driver and therefore always right?
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #230 on: April 18, 2016, 12:42:20 AM »
Because I'm an eagle driver and therefore always right?


 :rofl :rofl :rofl  :rock Nice one.

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Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #231 on: April 18, 2016, 12:51:34 AM »

You're right about the tactical information Eagl, that's not even easily inferred. However I don't want to alarm you chaps in your locked bunker but stealth technology isn't that complex to work out. There's a couple of essential scientific papers which if you read a couple of times and especially look at 5 gen aircraft to see how it's applied you very quickly put the design possibilities and restrictions together. With radar only the other way of course is to look at radar reflectors and then do the opposite  :rofl  Us non-bunker people and academics not working in that field don't have the test equipment of course (although I do have a microwave oven) but that's a refinement level really. Principals are known.


Well, all I can say is that the difference between book, or even experimental knowledge of stealth technology, and its application in a military environment is a 50 page questionnaire, a background check that takes about a year, no fewer than 4 binding non-disclosure agreements that never expire, a couple years of hands-on training with a high weed-out rate, and nearly 80 years of both classified and unclassified operational experience that has been analyzed by some of the best minds on the planet and passed down to a very select community that actually needs to know both theory and practice.

But yea, other than that the book knowledge about low observable technology is totally the same  :)

Anyone ever wonder how much of the stuff "everyone knows" about how nukes work is just part of the big lie protecting nuke technology?  Lots of eggheads know how to build a nuke, but some of the really big and really small ones are way more complicated than the diagram in the "big book of how things work" that you can get from the library...  I imagine that what everyone knows about stealth might be a bit like that, maybe.

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Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #232 on: April 18, 2016, 12:57:42 AM »
Oh yea, not trying to be belligerent, its all fun and games in here :)

Except for you damn kids get off my lawn  :old:
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #233 on: April 18, 2016, 01:23:10 AM »
Well, all I can say is that the difference between book, or even experimental knowledge of stealth technology, and its application in a military environment is a 50 page questionnaire, a background check that takes about a year, no fewer than 4 binding non-disclosure agreements that never expire, a couple years of hands-on training with a high weed-out rate, and nearly 80 years of both classified and unclassified operational experience that has been analyzed by some of the best minds on the planet and passed down to a very select community that actually needs to know both theory and practice.

But yea, other than that the book knowledge about low observable technology is totally the same  :)

Anyone ever wonder how much of the stuff "everyone knows" about how nukes work is just part of the big lie protecting nuke technology?  Lots of eggheads know how to build a nuke, but some of the really big and really small ones are way more complicated than the diagram in the "big book of how things work" that you can get from the library...  I imagine that what everyone knows about stealth might be a bit like that, maybe.


It's not rocket surgery  :old:  And I used the Ladybird book of stealth technology as my primary source. Big book of how things work has too much reading and not enough pictures.

Well perhaps you can cast your eye over the final result of my project and laugh. Or not. If not then I'll put the kettle on for when the CIA arrive  :banana:

I notice you aren't really addressing the big secret issue here about whether you have a Spies Like Us lift or not. Suspicious.


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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #234 on: April 18, 2016, 06:49:19 AM »
In 1993 at Waddington I asked the F117 pilots what it was made from to make it Stealth.
The chappy said that he could tell me, but 8 years old was a young age for me to die.
My mother immediately stepped in and told me to ask him again...  :confused:
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Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #235 on: April 18, 2016, 08:00:36 AM »
Because I'm an eagle driver and therefore always right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA LOLLOLOLOL

You could not give better evidence of not having a good argument.

Offline puller

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #236 on: April 18, 2016, 08:01:48 AM »
In 1993 at Waddington I asked the F117 pilots what it was made from to make it Stealth.
The chappy said that he could tell me, but 8 years old was a young age for me to die.
My mother immediately stepped in and told me to ask him again...  :confused:

 :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #237 on: April 18, 2016, 08:38:55 AM »
My mother immediately stepped in and told me to ask him again...  :confused:

 :rofl :rofl  I salute Mrs. Dolby's quick whit!



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Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #238 on: April 18, 2016, 06:54:10 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 01:18:28 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #239 on: April 18, 2016, 06:59:26 PM »

It's not rocket surgery  :old:  And I used the Ladybird book of stealth technology as my primary source. Big book of how things work has too much reading and not enough pictures.

Well perhaps you can cast your eye over the final result of my project and laugh. Or not. If not then I'll put the kettle on for when the CIA arrive  :banana:

I notice you aren't really addressing the big secret issue here about whether you have a Spies Like Us lift or not. Suspicious.

I find the sesame street book of words to be a better source, because bert and ernie, right?

We got an email from the people who send official emails, saying classified stuff is still classified even if we see it on TV or in a movie, so I don't have any idea about a lift or gift or rift or anything that may or may not have been in any particular tidbit of popular culture.


Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.