Author Topic: Dogfight : F35 vs F16  (Read 92423 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #240 on: April 18, 2016, 08:31:12 PM »
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 01:19:16 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #241 on: April 18, 2016, 10:08:55 PM »
How many hours in the F-35 eagl?
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #242 on: April 19, 2016, 01:20:11 AM »
I find the sesame street book of words to be a better source, because bert and ernie, right?

We got an email from the people who send official emails, saying classified stuff is still classified even if we see it on TV or in a movie, so I don't have any idea about a lift or gift or rift or anything that may or may not have been in any particular tidbit of popular culture.

Yes I understand your position Eagl and respect that. You can't confirm or deny anything. I'll just have to maintain the illusion you have got one of those lifts from Spies Like Us  :banana:

I've got an audiobook about stealth technology by Bert an Ernie. "Hey Burt, hey Burt, oblique irradiation of the wedge by a plane wave, hey Burt?". Classic. Rather have it by David Attenborough but hey, it was free.


Don't imagine I'm going to make many friends here saying this, but I've watched a few documentaries last night on the F-35 with an open mind and I've completely changed my mind. Pierre Sprey is a turkey. Completely outmoded ideas, conflicting thinking indicating ignorance and not honest about his knowledge and past activities. I still think the F-35 is ugly (I can't call it a design classic), but their development process is very well thought out and logical. Seems a lot of the outrage about the cost could be that this is the first time in military aircraft development the total cost is calculated and announced instead of stashed under 'advanced lift systems for bunker transportation' or 'mil spec toilet development - $22,000,000'. This includes the fuel, maintenance and spares. I actually think it will be very manoeuvreble once they've developed the software - in good time. The 'loss' against the F-16 for instance was no such thing. The SA it provides is outrageously good. There's a lot more, but the two most significant things which are very unusual are that: 1. the cost is going down and 2. so is the weight of the individual aircraft.

I think the JSF will do to air combat what the smart phone did to communication. The software challenges are incredible, but they're making progress.

« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 01:36:01 AM by nrshida »
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Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #243 on: April 19, 2016, 02:20:35 AM »
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 01:19:55 PM by Skuzzy »

Offline shift8

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #244 on: April 19, 2016, 02:57:53 AM »

Offline eagl

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #245 on: April 19, 2016, 08:08:13 AM »
How many hours in the F-35 eagl?

Same as anyone else in here ;)
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #246 on: April 19, 2016, 08:41:41 AM »
Same as anyone else in here ;)

So in other words it would be wise take the word of a 2000+ hour F-16 pilot who now flies the F-35 over yours. ;)

Just curious: What do you fly these days?
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Gman

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #247 on: April 19, 2016, 09:31:27 AM »
One thing I wonder about is if foreign pilots (not American) have been issued orders the same as US pilots regarding public slagging of the F35 - all F35 pilots in the US have received orders via a memo "not for public release" to only speak well of it and spin only positive PR.  Why was no such orders necessary for the F22?  I've brought this point up before, why was none of this incredibly negative stuff about the F35, similarly out there during the F22s development cycles?  Even when the F22 had major problems, even a CRASH, nobody ever came out and said "this thing is going to lose vs current and near future threats, and badly" as they have with the F35.  Why is that?

You have Dolby who has written a couple articles, and not mentioned a single negative in either.  Then you have the US governments own internal analysis and think tank which has concluded several times that vs peer nation opponents the F35 is going to lose (right now) in many types of engagements air to air.  Serenity is an up and coming fighter pilot in the USN fighter stream - he's heard nothing good about it from ANYONE he's spoken to, which is a lot more people involved in the area of air combat than any of us likely have.  Eagl, a long time fighter veteran, flying one of if not the best fighter ever made for a long time.  Mace here as well has said some important things, an instructor at the most known fighter weapons school in the world and a long time F14 pilot.

I don't doubt Dolby's experience or ability either, but he's just one pilot, and again, seeing absolutely NO mention of any problems or solutions for him in his quoted articles - how could anyone claim that it's all wine and roses right now when the list of problems from Lockheed/Government sources itself is so incredibly long, and some of them being pretty serious and without current solutions, after all these years still.   It certainly IS possible, even likely, that Norway, UK, Israel, everyone else getting F35s have been issued similar orders regarding PR as American pilots, which if true means at best means the public is only getting one side of the story.

I'm still reserving judgement until at least a 4 ship of F35s is used at Red Flag or some other similar exercise/war game where it's put up against enemy red air simulating peer nation threats from China/Russia etc.  Or even actual threats as when the Indians brought their SU30MKI over, or vs Malaysian or other operators of such fighters.  Then the rubber is going to meet the road, and we'll see just how accurate both sides of this argument are, but IMO if several companies paid by the USAF/USN to war game out the F35 vs SU/Chinese fighters right now or in the near future have said the F35 is losing, and then the main internal analysis/think tank unit is saying the same...

Combine that with current F35 pilots being issued orders regarding PR, in addition to huge swaths of current fighter pilots in other types or retired/new/etc voicing major concerns about the F35...I think everyone should at the very least have some red flags going up over that.

I do hope it works well, and in those first exercises it's used it wallops all opponents and silences all critics, considering the cost and cost to other programs, it better.  I do think everyone needs to be prepared for that NOT happening though too, considering the massive delays and criticisms out there now.  Then what?

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #248 on: April 19, 2016, 09:49:20 AM »
One thing I wonder about is if foreign pilots (not American) have been issued orders the same as US pilots regarding public slagging of the F35 - all F35 pilots in the US have received orders via a memo "not for public release" to only speak well of it and spin only positive PR.

I've read that memo and it was not a gag order. It was an instruction on how to dispel common negative myths that are factually wrong about the F-35. The F-22 never had this much bad press, so there was no need.


Serenity is an up and coming fighter pilot in the USN fighter stream - he's heard nothing good about it from ANYONE he's spoken to, which is a lot more people involved in the area of air combat than any of us likely have.

I asked him about that actually, and he had not heard anything negative from any pilot who actually flies the F-35.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2016, 09:50:55 AM by GScholz »
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Offline Toad

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #249 on: April 19, 2016, 11:55:14 AM »

I'm still reserving judgement until at least a 4 ship of F35s is used at Red Flag or some other similar exercise/war game where it's put up against enemy red air simulating peer nation threats from China/Russia etc.  Or even actual threats as when the Indians brought their SU30MKI over, or vs Malaysian or other operators of such fighters. 

If the results are a great success for the F-35, you'll hear all about it from the various services and Lockheed.

If the results are NOT a great success for the F-35...we'll be told it was a great success for the F-35 anyway.

You don't really think they'd admit serious shortcomings, do you? They don't want the enemy to know that and they don't want to admit to the US public that they wasted an incredible amount of time and treasure on a loser.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #250 on: April 19, 2016, 12:00:00 PM »
If they do terrible at Red Flag or any other NATO exercise it will be impossible to keep it a secret.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Toad

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #251 on: April 19, 2016, 12:21:36 PM »
They'll explain away any shortcomings with some bullstuff, redefine the goals, fault the setup or some such.

Admitting failure is not an option. Any Red Air pilots that start recounting how they mopped the deck with the F-35 will be sitting in a radar station on the Korean DMZ faster than you can say "cost overrun".

Maybe it will turn out to be the greatest airborne Swiss Army Knife every designed. We had better hope it does.

I am not confidant.

Think of the various do-it-all tools you have used. Even the Leatherman tool, a useful thing in and of itself is not the true master of any of the tasks it is used to do. It does many things fairly well but is rarely more useful than a tool specifically designed for a specific task.

The idea that a single platform Wunderplane can do every/any mission is suspect in my mind from the very outset.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline artik

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #252 on: April 19, 2016, 12:47:53 PM »
Another stuff that is rarely mentioned in this discussion even by Eagl...

WVR may be enforced not only due to ROI... Just to mention not every place is wide Iraqi desert or wide seas... It some locations it may be few minutes of flight time to cross from one base to another.

So WVR may be much more likely due to simple fact - crowded air space and close by location. And of course it isn't only specific to Israel but Europe as well. Think Latvia, Ukraine - it is just a matter of crossing the border and you on the other side. So you just wouldn't have time or opportunity for BVR.
Artik, 101 "Red" Squadron, Israel

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #253 on: April 19, 2016, 01:51:41 PM »
They'll explain away any shortcomings with some bullstuff, redefine the goals, fault the setup or some such.

But, we'll know it didn't win.


Any Red Air pilots that start recounting how they mopped the deck with the F-35 will be sitting in a radar station on the Korean DMZ faster than you can say "cost overrun".

What a typical U.S. centric way of thinking... What you say may be true, except if they happen to be French or German or Canadian or Indian or any other nation regularly participating in Red Flag. They will have no qualms about blowing the whistle, and no U.S. authority can order them to Korea, or any other place for that matter. All the nations who have bought the F-35 will have a thing or two to say to America if that happens...
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline GScholz

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Re: Dogfight : F35 vs F16
« Reply #254 on: April 19, 2016, 02:09:26 PM »
Especially if they're French... Imagine the smugness!  :uhoh



"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."