Author Topic: Bf109 Corner Velocity  (Read 6436 times)

Offline Chalenge

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Bf109 Corner Velocity
« on: May 10, 2016, 02:56:31 PM »
The AHWiki has this information on some airplanes, but it is conspicuously missing from all 109 pages.

Has anyone worked out CV for the Bf109 lineage?
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2016, 03:01:10 PM »
I have always felt comfortable between around 250 - 275 mph. But that is a big gap.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2016, 03:53:12 PM »
Yeah, especially since Spatula seems to have thought it was 225 for the P-51.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2016, 03:57:51 PM »
clean stall speed multiplied by 2.44/2.45 which ever is easiest!


  This should give a very close estimate to CV give a 6 G limit.



  YMMV.


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Offline FLS

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2016, 04:24:55 PM »
Yeah, especially since Spatula seems to have thought it was 225 for the P-51.

225 is more like the 109F.  Varying with weight and altitude.

clean stall speed multiplied by 2.44/2.45 which ever is easiest!


  This should give a very close estimate to CV give a 6 G limit.



  YMMV.


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Offline mthrockmor

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2016, 06:41:48 PM »
CV is the minimum speed a plane can turn 6gs?

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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2016, 07:59:59 PM »
More or less. It is the minimum speed in which the aircraft can pull its maximum rated Gs. So if that's 6 Gs . . .
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Offline GScholz

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2016, 08:33:04 PM »
6G is blackout limit in AH. Structural limit for the 109 should be around 8G.
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Offline bustr

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2016, 11:38:59 AM »
With the new move able HUD in the beta for speed\alt, you can move that onto your gunsight reflector plate and turn off the reticle. Then perform clean stalls while watching the HUD. I don't know if it shows up when filming, but a third party film capture should get it.

Always wondered if Hitech has a session file he can generate for each aircraft that gives you data like corner velocity. Wasn't Widewing working on those graphs at one time which gave CV relative to alt? Having that pop out with the speed and climb graphs would probably be overkill for the vast majority of piu, piu, piuers in our game.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2016, 01:46:20 PM »
Corner velocity is only good to know!   It cant be maintained in level flight so I consider it as something that's good to know but of little use in actual combat.

 Something I find useful is the amount of G you can pull when below CV!  Like in the case of the 190's at 225mph you can only pull 2.5 G before you will stall a wing! At that speed a spit can pull 5 G and a zero can pull to blackout.

  Then there's weight and alt as both have effects on CV. So while it may be useful to know,it's not as useful as many think.



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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2016, 01:56:26 PM »
Well, I would like to know if someone has an easy method of finding CV for each airplane, especially if that can be discovered "on the fly" as it were.
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2016, 02:09:07 PM »
Well, I would like to know if someone has an easy method of finding CV for each airplane, especially if that can be discovered "on the fly" as it were.

Just turn hard in a shallow descending helix until your speed reduces and you can't pull to black, then increase descent angle a bit more until you can. Continue to bracket the speed down to a reasonably accurate value.

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Offline FLS

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2016, 03:49:48 PM »
The easy way to find accelerated stall speed is a shallow climbing spiral while holding a given g load. Divide the result by the square root of your load factor then multiply by the square root of 6. For example a 3g climbing spiral that stalls at 200 is divided by 1.73 and the result multiplied by 2.44.

Offline drgondog

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2016, 08:00:57 AM »
6G is blackout limit in AH. Structural limit for the 109 should be around 8G.

I have often wondered about several aspects of the Bf 109 structural load limits - for example, was the German design philosophy to design to limit stress based on yield and ultimate on a 1.5 factor?  Was the design limit load 8G?  Was 8G for the original design combat weight? Did it evolve to include additional structural design features as the combat Gross Weight increased from model to model?

For example - the P-51 structural build up was 8G at 8000 pounds for limit load. By the time the P-51D was operational, at combat weight of 10,200 pounds (sans external fuel) the limit load decreased to ~ 6.3 Limit, 9.5 Ultimate.

What was the design Limit and Ultimate G Load for the Bf 109G?

Second question - what was the constant altitude sustained turn G load for the Bf 109 and at what CL.  All aircraft form drag increases nearly linearly (but at different rates) as AoA increases to region of stall. Additionally, prop/engine efficiency to convert HP to thrust gets 'iffy' in the 180-225 mph range to analytics for Thrust produced is equally iffy when modeling Thrust and Drag in curvilinear flight. Total Profile Drag for a P-51 for example, increases nearly 50% in climb and the contribution for the wing component of a 109 has to be a lot more than a 51.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Bf109 Corner Velocity
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2016, 02:28:50 PM »
Drgondog,

   I seem to recalla 12 G max load on the 109 wing,with an 8 G limit that GScholz state that would be a 1.5 load factor. I also recall the brits used a 2.0 factor but I could be mistaken as it's been awhile since I've checked such things..... :old:


 As for your 2nd question..... That is slightly over my head,or as I like to say above my pay grade...... :devil

   I do enjoy your contributions,I always learn something when you post so plz continue to post!



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