Lost P-47 in NY

[Vraciu]

Procedures and checklists.... When in the Navy, we would hold ditching drills on a regular basis. There's no substitute for training until following procedure is automatic. It's unfortunate that some warbird pilots don't have the emergency procedures memorized. I've talked to several, who fly WWII aircraft, who stated privately that this is a common issue, especially among guest pilots.

We probably won't know exactly why Gordon did not get out. What we do know is that he did not jettison the canopy, and that may have been a significant contributor.

Other possibilities have been discussed. Had he not locked his harness, etc.....

His harness was locked or he would not have been struggling to get out because he would have been unconscious. 

The fact of the matter is he did one hell of a job getting the airplane down as well as he did. 

Everyone talks tough until the SHTF.  I flew with a former Navy guy when we had a cabin depress in a Falcon.  I had to shout at him to put on his flipping mask and that is the first action.

Gordon wasn't some rookie.  He had flown the Jug for years. 

Blue Angel 6 did not eject the other day when all indications are he was in the envelope.    So much for memorized procedures.   Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.

[Widewing]

His harness was locked or he would not have been struggling to get out because he would have been unconscious. 

The fact of the matter is he did one hell of a job getting the airplane down as well as he did. 

Everyone talks tough until the SHTF.  I flew with a former Navy guy when we had a cabin depress in a Falcon.  I had to shout at him to put on his flipping mask and that is the first action.

Gordon wasn't some rookie.  He had flown the Jug for years. 

Blue Angel 6 did not eject the other day when all indications are he was in the envelope.    So much for memorized procedures.   Human factors can only be mitigated, never eliminated.

You cannot say if his harness was locked or not. You assume he would be disabled, but you can't know that either. Moreover, you come across as the typical armchair expert. I talk the talk because I have long since walked the walk. It isn't tough talk, it's called training. NATOPs qualified. Being able to recite emergency procedures from memory. That can save your life. Ignoring or not knowing will get you killed. "So much for memorized procedures" indicates your armchair status, because I know of no military pilots or aircrew who would make that statement. They know better... This is why we ran frequent ditching drills. This is why we rode the Dilbert Dunker during periodic requal in water survival training. For some of us, this is why we're still here.

The investigation will probably reveal why Gordon failed to get out... All we know now is that he didn't escape from the aircraft (which has an excellent record of pilots surviving a ditching). The other thing we know is that he didn't jettison the canopy. How that factored into his death, or not, is yet to be determined.

[Ack-Ack]

Widewing, with the canopy jammed half open like it was, would it still have been possible to jettison it in that position?

[Vraciu]

You cannot say if his harness was locked or not. You assume he would be disabled, but you can't know that either. Moreover, you come across as the typical armchair expert. I talk the talk because I have long since walked the walk. It isn't tough talk, it's called training. NATOPs qualified. Being able to recite emergency procedures from memory. That can save your life. Ignoring or not knowing will get you killed. "So much for memorized procedures" indicates your armchair status, because I know of no military pilots or aircrew who would make that statement. They know better... This is why we ran frequent ditching drills. This is why we rode the Dilbert Dunker during periodic requal in water survival training. For some of us, this is why we're still here.

The investigation will probably reveal why Gordon failed to get out... All we know now is that he didn't escape from the aircraft (which has an excellent record of pilots surviving a ditching). The other thing we know is that he didn't jettison the canopy. How that factored into his death, or not, is yet to be determined.

I walk the walk plenty and have ten thousand hours to show for it--including PBJ-1J, T-28, Strikemaster, and others, along with half a dozen jet type ratings.

I did Navy physiology training in Corpus the first time when I was in High School for crying out loud.   Been there.  Done that. 

I will repeat.  We cannot eliminate human factors, we can only mitigate them. 

And you weren't there either.  The guy did a hell of a job and saved the airplane. 

When the defecation hits the ventilation we all react differently.  NATOPS or otherwise. 

Gordon did just fine.    Something failed somewhere to prevent his escape.   He very well may have tried to dump the bubble and it jammed, but the fact is the guy had very little time to do anything but ditch.  He did that job perfectly.

I stand by my comment.  So much for memorized procedures.    It's yellow and black.  Pull.   Amazing how Air Force guys seem to do this more successfully than Navy ones.  Culture?  Training?   Luck?   Beats me.  But it proves that all the practice in the world is not always enough.

They know better?   Yeah, sure they do.  They THINK they know better.  They think they're invincible.    They think 1,200 hours is highly experienced.  I got news for them...   They're just as fallible as anyone else when the fire goes out, and the difference between living and dying is not just having memory items at the ready.   

[Vraciu]

See Rule #4

[Widewing]

Widewing, with the canopy jammed half open like it was, would it still have been possible to jettison it in that position?

Phone video of the water landing shows the canopy open. Witnesses reported various things, but several mentioned seeing the "pilot struggling with the glass".

It's entirely reasonable that the canopy slammed shut on splash down. The risk there is that the canopy bow can smack the back of the pilot's head if the seat is cranked up high.

Because the canopy can be operated electrically via motor and cable, it takes a strong tug on the two knobs to pull it open (from my experience with a P-47N, displayed without a battery). Hence the ditching instructions stating to jettison it prior to landing.

Video and photos show that the canopy was barely more than half-way opened. It is possible that it jammed in place. The investigation will indicate if it did. However, since it was winched out of the river with it not fully opened, perhaps the divers were unable to open it further (very little leverage available). It didn't open further by its own weight when winched out (it's stiff to move manually).

Mitigating factors include getting out of the harness. It's easier to unfasten and slip out if unlocked. If Gordon locked it, he might have tried to unlock it. The lock lever is on the side of the seat base. He'd have to feel for it. I've never seen a harness buckle jam, but it can't be ruled out.

Invariably, the investigation will show a cascade of events that led to Gordon's death. S**t outta luck won't be mentioned, but it's a big one....

[Widewing]

I walk the walk plenty and have ten thousand hours to show for it--including PBJ-1J, T-28, Strikemaster, and others, along with half a dozen jet type ratings.

I did Navy physiology training in Corpus the first time when I was in High School for crying out loud.   Been there.  Done that. 

I will repeat.  We cannot eliminate human factors, we can only mitigate them. 

And you weren't there either.  The guy did a hell of a job and saved the airplane. 

When the defecation hits the ventilation we all react differently.  NATOPS or otherwise. 

Gordon did just fine.    Something failed somewhere to prevent his escape.   He very well may have tried to dump the bubble and it jammed, but the fact is the guy had very little time to do anything but ditch.  He did that job perfectly.

I stand by my comment.  So much for memorized procedures.    It's yellow and black.  Pull.   Amazing how Air Force guys seem to do this more successfully than Navy ones.  Culture?  Training?   Luck?   Beats me.  But it proves that all the practice in the world is not always enough.

They know better?   Yeah, sure they do.  They THINK they know better.  They think they're invincible.    They think 1,200 hours is highly experienced.  I got news for them...   They're just as fallible as anyone else when the fire goes out, and the difference between living and dying is not just having memory items at the ready.

So, after all of this rambling, it boils down to you NOT having piloted or crewed in the military.... I got it. To get qualified for any particular type, you'd better know the NATOPs as well as you know your car's license plate number. if not, you'll fail the written NATOPs test. If not, you'll flunk your check ride with the NATOPs evaluator. This goes for pilots, NFOs and aircrewmen. The training is intense and all encompassing. So is the qualification process. It saves lives. Because the Naval Aviation environment is orders of magnitude less forgiving than civilian aviation, it is necessary to train for it continuously. Procedures aren't there to make it tougher, they are there because they are proven to save lives and equipment. Dismissing this, or assuming it really doesn't matter is simply foolish. Until you've heard, "your signal is Charlie" on dark, rainy night with high seas and strong varying winds, you probably can't understand. Training and procedures are everything.

[Vraciu]

See Rule #4

[DaveBB]

 Study on Human Factors Relating to Ditching:  http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a215755.pdf

Training does help, but the military and civilian survival rates are about the same.  Strangely, one of the key survival factors to surviving a ditching is a being either a recreational or commercial diver.

[Vraciu]

Study on Human Factors Relating to Ditching:  http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a215755.pdf

Training does help, but the military and civilian survival rates are about the same.  Strangely, one of the key survival factors to surviving a ditching is a being either a recreational or commercial diver.

I haven't finished it, but so far it is very good and backs up what I have said.  Thanks for sharing.   

[Widewing]

I haven't finished it, but so far it is very good and backs up what I have said.  Thanks for sharing.   

Yeah, except that there is a vast difference between a rotorcraft and fixed wing ditching...  Helos almost always roll inverted. They sink like bricks. I've an SH-3A crash-land at sea (lost tail rotor gear box). It rolled upside down and was gone in about 30 seconds. All of the crew got out (4), with one relatively minor injury.

Here's a story of 5 P-47s ditching together. All got out without major drama... One minor injury.

http://www.pbyrescue.com/Stories/p47_story.htm

[Widewing]

See Rule #4

[Vraciu]

See Rule #4

[Vraciu]

See Rule #4

[colmbo]

  The divers pulled his body out by a foot.  The canopy was not the problem.

I'm thinking if the divers pulled him out by his foot he must have gotten the harness released.  If he was still strapped in it would have been hard to get to his foot.