Dead head

[briansold]

A friend of mine says he signed up to receive a list of empty leg private jet flights, supposedly at huge discounts. Does anyone know if this is real? Or is too good to be true/not that much cheaper more likely. It would be great to avoid the greyhound buses with wings once in awhile.

[Traveler]

A friend of mine says he signed up to receive a list of empty leg private jet flights, supposedly at huge discounts. Does anyone know if this is real? Or is too good to be true/not that much cheaper more likely. It would be great to avoid the greyhound buses with wings once in awhile.

It would have to be a part 135 operation.  They set their  own rates and can charge for as much or as little as they like.  But I can’t see any seat in a 135 operation not making a profit.  The exposure to risk alone would demand it.  it’s not going to be cheap if that’s what you are thinking.

Large corporation with their own flight departments operate on part 91, like the rest of GA, and they seldom if ever dead head. 

[donnieboy]

My thoughts also Traveler. Even charter operators seldom dead head. And most private owners would never sell cheap flights to just anyone even if they could legally. BTW "cheap" would be around $2000/hour for a small corporate jet. Usually with a 3 hour minimum. Split six ways and it still ain't cheap.

[Traveler]

My thoughts also Traveler. Even charter operators seldom dead head. And most private owners would never sell cheap flights to just anyone even if they could legally. BTW "cheap" would be around $2000/hour for a small corporate jet. Usually with a 3 hour minimum. Split six ways and it still ain't cheap.

I did some digging:
Here is an ad from something called Air Charter Service  and their ad:

PRIVATE JET CHARTERS AT A FRACTION OF THE REGULAR PRICE

This is their pitch:
When Air Charter Service has a one-way charter, the aircraft is sometimes empty when it repositions back to its base, or continuing on to another location. These are known within the industry as ‘Empty Legs’.
Their actual empty legs and the dates available and the price you pay:

EMPTY LEGS   DATE(S)   AIRCRAFT   PRICES FROM
Seattle - Kahului 22 Jun 2016 - 23 Jun 2016   Bombardier Challenger 300 USD 24,000
Phoenix - Carlsbad 28 Jun 2016 - 29 Jun 2016   Cessna Citation CJ3 USD 4,150
Newark - Columbus 25 Jun 2016 - 27 Jun 2016   Gulfstream IV USD 9,500

I went on Jet Blues web site to get a ticket price for the Newark to Columbus on June 25 round trip open ended ticket first class about $850.00.

[briansold]

I saw that site also. I priced an available empty leg from Teterboro NY to Van Nuys with a normal tag of about $68,000. The discount was supposedly 70% making the flight $20,400. Ooops thanks for checking though LOL. However I do fly with my 2yo son and the extra $18,000 might be worth it to avoid the nightmare of commercial with him. 

[donnieboy]

Remember guys you can take friends. A CJ3 seats 6, 7 if you don't mind riding on the potty.
A GIV will seat 12-14 depending on configuration and the Challenger 300 8 or 9.

[Golfer]

First things first, the airplane isn't going to move without someone paying for it.

Many operators publish empty legs at deep discounts.  There's really no downside for an operator as the airplane typically is already paid for that segment anyway, either by the previous or the next customer.  Putting the empty legs out there is an opportunity to double-dip or provide a discount for the customer paying for the segment.  We'd do this going from the Northeast to Florida where we have the airplane paid for the round trip but by having a discounted leg put out to the broker community (scum) we'd often be able to fill the segment and make additional revenue for that leg.  These customers generally speaking aren't the most desirable because the nature of only shopping for fire sale prices go against the grain to the convenience (and therefore cost) of private aviation.  They're adapting to the situation rather than the schedule being placed around them.  In our case if we were dropping the principals off in Florida from the Northeast on Thursday and they were staying for a couple weeks, we might price a little more aggressively (not at a loss) to get the airplane sold back home so they/we/the business wasn't on the hook for the 2-1/2 hour empty leg.  If we could fill that leg the same or next day it was worth it to move the airplane with someone else paying for it.  We liked this because the better the ratio of revenue flying to owner flying resulted in better numbers and a bigger bonus.  Win!

Typically, however, it's a double dip.  If the airplane costs $3,000 an hour to operate and normal retail charter rate is $5,500/hr, offering a "deep discount" on a 2 hour trip to where I was going anyway at $3500/hr then I generate $18,000 in revenue compared to $11,000 for the same $6,000 in operating costs.  Profit of $12,000 instead of $5,000 for that leg.  The client gets a discount and the owner gets a bonus for being in the right place at the right time and the operator gets a bigger piece of pie from which to take their percentage.

Other times the airplane is actually sold one-way because the return leg might be several hours and the customer just doesn't want to pay it.  That's fine as long as the destination is close to an area where the likelihood of a live return leg is high (SoCal, Dallas Metroplex, South Florida, Caribbean Islands, NY Metro area, etc) and may be agreeable to the operator and/or the owner of the airplane.  Other times if the airplane is based somewhere out of the way the first reposition leg of a trip could be discounted to make the total cost of a given trip more appealing so as to have a more competitive quote compared to another operator.  Catching a double dip can help offset doing a little of this from time to time.

[Traveler]

First things first, the airplane isn't going to move without someone paying for it.

Many operators publish empty legs at deep discounts.  There's really no downside for an operator as the airplane typically is already paid for that segment anyway, either by the previous or the next customer.  Putting the empty legs out there is an opportunity to double-dip or provide a discount for the customer paying for the segment.  We'd do this going from the Northeast to Florida where we have the airplane paid for the round trip but by having a discounted leg put out to the broker community (scum) we'd often be able to fill the segment and make additional revenue for that leg.  These customers generally speaking aren't the most desirable because the nature of only shopping for fire sale prices go against the grain to the convenience (and therefore cost) of private aviation.  They're adapting to the situation rather than the schedule being placed around them.  In our case if we were dropping the principals off in Florida from the Northeast on Thursday and they were staying for a couple weeks, we might price a little more aggressively (not at a loss) to get the airplane sold back home so they/we/the business wasn't on the hook for the 2-1/2 hour empty leg.  If we could fill that leg the same or next day it was worth it to move the airplane with someone else paying for it.  We liked this because the better the ratio of revenue flying to owner flying resulted in better numbers and a bigger bonus.  Win!

Typically, however, it's a double dip.  If the airplane costs $3,000 an hour to operate and normal retail charter rate is $5,500/hr, offering a "deep discount" on a 2 hour trip to where I was going anyway at $3500/hr then I generate $18,000 in revenue compared to $11,000 for the same $6,000 in operating costs.  Profit of $12,000 instead of $5,000 for that leg.  The client gets a discount and the owner gets a bonus for being in the right place at the right time and the operator gets a bigger piece of pie from which to take their percentage.

Other times the airplane is actually sold one-way because the return leg might be several hours and the customer just doesn't want to pay it.  That's fine as long as the destination is close to an area where the likelihood of a live return leg is high (SoCal, Dallas Metroplex, South Florida, Caribbean Islands, NY Metro area, etc) and may be agreeable to the operator and/or the owner of the airplane.  Other times if the airplane is based somewhere out of the way the first reposition leg of a trip could be discounted to make the total cost of a given trip more appealing so as to have a more competitive quote compared to another operator.  Catching a double dip can help offset doing a little of this from time to time.

Wow,  what your saying is that you have one seat that Client “A” has already bought and  paid for and you are selling that same seat to client “B”,  without providing any discount to back to Client “A” and pocketing the extra cash.
In my world we call that theft by deception.
Sounds like the Broker community isn’t the only scum involved.  But then again all of my Aviation experience was with either an airline, flew the line for many years, Eastern  (the wings of man) and later the corporate aviation world  of Philip Morris.  Which was run more like an airline then a corporate carrier.

[Golfer]

No thievery.  The trips are quoted ahead of time and signed by the client and they agree to the dollars and the flying ahead of time. Depending on the relationship with the client or if they are under management or the deal struck ahead of time, a retroactive discount may or may not be applicable.  We charge a premium and hourly rates are more than your average charter operator because there are several aspects that other companies don't do. Guaranteed coverage of an airplane the same size or larger if the airplane you book breaks, for instance. Also no retroactive additions for longer than expected flight times or holds.  What you are quoted is what you pay (with some exceptions included in the quote like deicing fluid or international handling fees assessed after the trip) and the operator assumes the risk for that.  It winds up being a good deal for the customer and the operator loses their shirt on a light jet charter that has to be covered by a large cabin jet. The customer will still pay only their quoted price for the light jet and not a penny more.

Charge as much as possible to move the airplane as little as possible. Clients are savvy and they shop around. It's not hard to price yourself out of a market which by doing the above, we occasionally do with the cesspool of south Florida operators flooding the market with cheap and not always above board business practices.

Minimums trips fall into the same category where you charge typically a 2 hour/day minimum. If someone books a 5 day trip that only requires 6 hours of flying, you make 10 hours of revenue, 4 of which you don't have any operating costs.  That's a win for the airplane owner.

[Traveler]

No thievery.  The trips are quoted ahead of time and signed by the client and they agree to the dollars and the flying ahead of time. Depending on the relationship with the client or if they are under management or the deal struck ahead of time, a retroactive discount may or may not be applicable.  We charge a premium and hourly rates are more than your average charter operator because there are several aspects that other companies don't do. Guaranteed coverage of an airplane the same size or larger if the airplane you book breaks, for instance. Also no retroactive additions for longer than expected flight times or holds.  What you are quoted is what you pay (with some exceptions included in the quote like deicing fluid or international handling fees assessed after the trip) and the operator assumes the risk for that.  It winds up being a good deal for the customer and the operator loses their shirt on a light jet charter that has to be covered by a large cabin jet. The customer will still pay only their quoted price for the light jet and not a penny more.

Charge as much as possible to move the airplane as little as possible. Clients are savvy and they shop around. It's not hard to price yourself out of a market which by doing the above, we occasionally do with the cesspool of south Florida operators flooding the market with cheap and not always above board business practices.

Minimums trips fall into the same category where you charge typically a 2 hour/day minimum. If someone books a 5 day trip that only requires 6 hours of flying, you make 10 hours of revenue, 4 of which you don't have any operating costs.  That's a win for the airplane owner.

Sounds like a lot of double talk to me, but that’s just me.  If you’re a 135 operation and you have  client “A”  sign a charter agreement that includes the cost of  pre or post positioning for their charter and as you say “ double dip” by selling that same aircraft seat in a charter with client “B” .  I think you breached your contract with Client “A”. 

[Meatwad]

I did some digging:
Here is an ad from something called Air Charter Service  and their ad:

PRIVATE JET CHARTERS AT A FRACTION OF THE REGULAR PRICE

This is their pitch:
When Air Charter Service has a one-way charter, the aircraft is sometimes empty when it repositions back to its base, or continuing on to another location. These are known within the industry as ‘Empty Legs’.
Their actual empty legs and the dates available and the price you pay:

EMPTY LEGS   DATE(S)   AIRCRAFT   PRICES FROM
Seattle - Kahului 22 Jun 2016 - 23 Jun 2016   Bombardier Challenger 300 USD 24,000
Phoenix - Carlsbad 28 Jun 2016 - 29 Jun 2016   Cessna Citation CJ3 USD 4,150
Newark - Columbus 25 Jun 2016 - 27 Jun 2016   Gulfstream IV USD 9,500

I went on Jet Blues web site to get a ticket price for the Newark to Columbus on June 25 round trip open ended ticket first class about $850.00.

That site must confuse decimal points for commas 

[donnieboy]

At any rate you won't walk in off the street and get a "cheap" seat on a corporate jet. Even at a "huge discount" the cost will still have you on the bus for most of us non 1%ers.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Golfer]

Sounds like a lot of double talk to me, but that’s just me.  If you’re a 135 operation and you have  client “A”  sign a charter agreement that includes the cost of  pre or post positioning for their charter and as you say “ double dip” by selling that same aircraft seat in a charter with client “B” .  I think you breached your contract with Client “A”.

We don't sell a seat. We sell the empty leg, we don't add passengers to live legs.  The operator also retains complete operational control of the airplane (many problems were being caused by brokered flights and multiple subcontracts for a given trip which led to operators not actually knowing who was on and where their airplanes were in some cases)

Regardless having seen enough shenanigans that were actually shenanigans (included having been fired from a company for what boiles down to not engaging in said shenanigans) that any number of the cheap lawyer types involved in the business if there were a breach of contract we'd be sued for it.  Daily.

You're making some assumptions about is what the quote is for not to mention being pretty offensive about it. I won't call you names but it's essentially a contract of carriage. What are the terms?  I won't post what ours says but it doesn't say we'll fly you there for this price unless we get a better deal somehow and then charge you less.  It also won't say the operator won't surrender operational control to the client. They cant

The customer got where they wanted to go for the price they agreed to pay. That upholding a contract.

Most of these published one/ways are offered at deep discounts because the airplane is already paid to go somewhere.  That's the only reason it works. While there are shady outfits that will sell airplanes at a loss to the owner who leases it with the charter outfit, the good ones do not. There are checks and balances in place but in the end I'm an advocate for the aircraft owner, living within the boundaries and limits and rules for what we are and are not allowed to do.  If a particular deal is not in our best interest, it doesn't get approved.

[Traveler]

We don't sell a seat. We sell the empty leg, we don't add passengers to live legs.  The operator also retains complete operational control of the airplane (many problems were being caused by brokered flights and multiple subcontracts for a given trip which led to operators not actually knowing who was on and where their airplanes were in some cases)

Regardless having seen enough shenanigans that were actually shenanigans (included having been fired from a company for what boiles down to not engaging in said shenanigans) that any number of the cheap lawyer types involved in the business if there were a breach of contract we'd be sued for it.  Daily.

You're making some assumptions about is what the quote is for not to mention being pretty offensive about it. I won't call you names but it's essentially a contract of carriage. What are the terms?  I won't post what ours says but it doesn't say we'll fly you there for this price unless we get a better deal somehow and then charge you less.  It also won't say the operator won't surrender operational control to the client. They cant

The customer got where they wanted to go for the price they agreed to pay. That upholding a contract.

Most of these published one/ways are offered at deep discounts because the airplane is already paid to go somewhere.  That's the only reason it works. While there are shady outfits that will sell airplanes at a loss to the owner who leases it with the charter outfit, the good ones do not. There are checks and balances in place but in the end I'm an advocate for the aircraft owner, living within the boundaries and limits and rules for what we are and are not allowed to do.  If a particular deal is not in our best interest, it doesn't get approved.

I believe you introduced the broker description (scum), not me.  Second, if Client “A” enters into a charter and is charged to pre and post positioning of the aircraft, he’s paid for all legs, even if the aircraft is empty.   If you sell that empty le g to Client “B” that Client “A” has already paid for.   That’s a breach. 

[Golfer]

Sure.  If that's what's in the contract.

But I think you'll find that there's no breach of ethics, laws being broken or anything illegal being done.

We can start a thread for those things. Lord knows they happen. Just not in these examples.