Author Topic: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)  (Read 21116 times)

Offline Hajo

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #345 on: August 18, 2016, 11:59:40 AM »
In 1943 the USAAFa member of Northwest African Air Forces.  A consortium of RAF and USAAF  Command and units. Each air force had a squad or squadrons in the same command led

by either or.  As a matter of fact the entire theater was under the Command of Sid Arthur Tedder. He had under his command Generals of RAF, USAAF SAAF various air forces the led by a mix of Groups

and Squadrons listed under such units as Northwest African Air forces.  Strategic Air Force, Tactical Air Force, XII Air Support Command. The list goes on.  A mix of RAF, USAAF, and SAAF.

Even RAF Wellingtons were in theater. Interesting, A36s were flown also.
- The Flying Circus -

Offline ROC

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #346 on: August 20, 2016, 07:22:51 PM »
Balance.
I'm going to take one final pass at this.

Starting fields. 
Allied Order of Battle.
Quote
Aircraft are enabled at a5 (Bone), a65 (Youkes les Bains), and a13 (Constantine).  Also, fighters and attack aircraft are enabled at v95 -- note that takeoffs from there can be tricky.
Allies have A13, a field that is never near an active target

Axis Order of Battle.
Quote
Aircraft are enabled at a1 (Tunis), a66 (Bizerte), and a7 (Sousse)
Axis have no fields that are not targets, or in one frame A66 is a fraction of a sector away from an active target, so they are perpetually attacked and the attacking forces can instantly cap.

Balanced Field Locations?

Target areas are widely spaced, not concentrated.  In a focused, targeted set up, you set the battle conditions to a limited style, forcing the teams to fight head to head, and concentrate their defense at the same time.
In a wider field of battle, you allow for several possibilities.  One side can pile everything then have into a single flight, and push through like a wrecking ball.  The design suggests that there is much to cover and defend, and if one side opts to go in as a single wing, it will walk over the fragmented forces it meets on the way.  If both sides go for the wrecking ball approach, it is in each sides favor to avoid the fight and just race track a path of destruction over targets.  Fight avoided, not much fun.  If the sides were to engage, it's a great deal of fun, except when each side has the same amount of fighters and bombers, but one side has an overwhelming advantage in the guns those bombers have.  Put a formation of B17s and Allied Bombers against a formation of JU88s and notice a bit of a coverage gap. 
Unbalanced.

Now consider that the B17s et al are so well gunned that the Allies can afford to strip off more fighters from defense and put them on Attack.  They can now put a few more out to hunt the Axis bombers, letting the Allied bombers more easily get by with fewer escorts, tipping the fights balance yet again.  The Axis now have to put more fighters on the escort duty for the 88s leaving fewer fighters to defend their fields, putting the stronger 17s over the target with escorts and guns.  Chances of hitting the target are greater.

Brooke, I've been harping on counting stuff like this for years, you know I do, why don't you see this?   

Concentrate the fight to closer targets, force the fight to be head to head and make them fight their way through to the target without providing the ability for one side to take advantage of breaking their flights apart while breaking the flights limits the other side.  Get rid of the free ride air field for the Allies and make their launch fields under attack and perpetually capped just like the Axis fields are.  And don't just count bombs but count ordinance and make sure each side has the same chance to get to their targets and defend themselves.  Then, if you can't make the JU88s as self sufficient at the B17s, you put more guns around them, not draft a design that effectively strips them away.

This isn't a complaint about the Axis, this is pointing out balance, I don't care which side it is.  There is more to this than counting bombs and counting objects, you need to move out of the calculations and get into a full visualization of the event and fly it in your mind.  It is not balanced so that each side has the same opportunity to succeed.  You can have an advantage to the Allies, but there has to be a corresponding advantage the Axis also have to exploit.   Each side is supposed to have an obstacle to overcome and an exploit to make it happen.  One side here does not have an exploit.  Each condition, wrecking ball approach, divide and conquer, heavy escort with stealthy attack runs, each plays to the strength of one side.  You provided no advantage to the Axis to cause the Allies to consider that they have a problem to solve.
 
The Axis have every launch field capped by the target objectives.  The Allies have an open field.  The Allies can take advantage of an open field because the Axis must strip pilots from the target fields in order to cap 13.  The Allies never have to strip fighters from the objectives because all of the Axis fields are within the target areas or targets themselves. 
The Allies have a better ability to self defend their bombers by the gun configurations, meaning they have more guns on the enemy, but the bomber and fighter allocations are exactly the same.  The 88s do not have the field of fire the Allied planes have, so they must place more escorts on the bombers to gain the same level of defense.  In a B17 you have virtually a wall of defense around the entire plane with one person.  In a JU88 you need an escort to help cover the same area.  You have to consider this stuff when you design an event.  You have to fly every plane, in every mission.  You know this, and I know for a fact you have not done it with this one.  I've seen your work for 20 years, this is not what you know how to do. 
What exactly is the Axis advantage the Allies need to attempt to overcome?  Now, you know me, I've already flown this event mentally from both sides, planned missions, how would I beat the Allies, how would I beat the Axis, you know I have.  It's not ready.

Set the objectives up for each side so that it takes advantage of their strengths.  Put objectives at locations that breaks up the advantage the Allies have in bomber defensive capability so that if they chose to capitalize on their strength, it costs them the ability to hit all of the targets, make each work for their successes, but also reward them and allow them to actually have an advantage that causes the other side to sacrifice one of their strengths to over come it. 

I'm also going to ask you one more question, and you know I already know the answer.  The flight time between launches and attacks.  Did you look at launch, battle, return home, and does it fit into the one hour launch window?  Sure would suck to get back to base an hour and 10 minutes after you launch.  Would be so much better to be back, round trip, including time in fight, in say, 50 minutes so there is time to refill coffee and snack trays.  You need to consider it's 12 hours, 5 minute launch window on the hour, just make sure you are giving them time to refresh each hour, some might make it 2 or 3 missions but the window for refreshing has to be there.  Pace it, you have a long day ahead of you, so do they.

At this point, I know how I'd plan the Axis attack and in order to win, not simply be fodder for 12 hours and "hang in there, be tough Axis, we know you can do it", it would not be a head to head engagement and that simply wouldn't be any fun for anyone.
 


ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline KCDitto

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #347 on: August 20, 2016, 09:49:13 PM »
 :aok

ROC

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #348 on: August 21, 2016, 03:43:19 AM »

Allies have A13...

I have never in any scenario seen 3 fields capped at the same time and didn't think the allies would end up using a13, but it's a valid point -- no reason not to make things symmetric nonetheless.

I'll add a64 as an axis field that won't be a target.  That is roughly symmetric with a13.

Quote
[discussion of focus of battle]

I agree that a large playing area can lead to diffuse fights, sneaking around, and not much fun.  Because of that, the combat area in this one is 1/4 the area of most past scenarios and intended to have players/area the same as Dnieper and Southern Conquest, Frame 1.  It is intended to be much higher in players/area than most past scenarios.  It also has radar for planes above 1000 ft, and level bombers have only 3 best land targets.  If I focused it any more, I fear it would be too tight.  I would focus it slightly more for attackers (which will almost certainly be trying to sneak around -- just like in the real Tunisia), but subtracting targets for them in my opinion wouldn't change that dynamic significantly (because bases are somewhat clumped up, not evenly distributed), and removing bases runs me into problems balancing number of available attack ground objects on each side (which currently is nearly exactly equal) as well as balanced geographical availability of targets.  So, either way has its issues.  I went one way -- but I also increased the base flash distance significantly compared to Dnieper as a counter to that.

I think it will be decently focused -- but please see question in a 2nd post below in this topic.

Quote
[discussion of bombers]

-- The axis has a better fighter set.
-- Ju 88's aren't as bad in defense as most people think, especially compared to B-25's.
-- The axis bombers have a significant advantage in amount of ord carried.
-- The axis bombers are all the same and don't suffer the problems the allies have if they want bombers grouped together.
-- If the axis and allies had the same level-bomber set, I think it would be significantly unbalanced.

Currently, some folks think the axis has the advantage because of fighters.  Some folks think the allies have the advantage because of bombers.  I think it's in between.  Of course, I hope I'm the one who is right.  :aok

Quote
[counting, thinking, modelling the battle in one's head, etc.]

Yep, I did count lots of things, and I did my thinking about how the battle would go.  If we disagree, it isn't because I didn't.  It's because we have different judgements.

Quote
The flight time between launches and attacks.  Did you look at launch, battle, return home, and does it fit into the one hour launch window?

Yep.  Some will fit.  Some won't (depending on what folks choose to do).  Unless folks want this scenario to be in a 3x3 sector square, that's going to be part of people's planning and choices.  It's rare that scenarios are in that small an area (Dnieper and Southern Conquest, Frame 1 being rare exceptions).  The distances here are less than TFT, which folks liked, so I think it will be OK.

Quote
I know how I'd plan the Axis attack

I'm glad that you think you can win.  I think that you can, too.  (I also think that the allies can win, as I think it will depend on execution and plans.)  I'm sorry you think it will entail a boring strategy, but I think there will be decent action.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 04:12:31 AM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #349 on: August 21, 2016, 04:01:23 AM »
Version 9 up -- refresh browser to get latest version:

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201610_TunisiaFeb43/rules.html

Folks involved in thinking about strategies, please check out change log for v8 and v9.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #350 on: August 21, 2016, 04:13:31 AM »
ROC, do you feel that any of the phase 1-4 layouts are sufficiently focused?

Offline swareiam

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #351 on: August 21, 2016, 05:56:15 AM »
Brooke,

I am not so sure this rule should be so stringent.

Quote
In phases 1 and 4, each level-bomber group and attack group must Attempt at least one bombing mission to enemy ships if any are left.

Shouldn't this read "In phases 1 and 4, a level-bomber and attack group"?

The way the rule is written "ALL" level bombers and attack groups must attack ships. That seems a bit much when there are other targets to to consider in the same phase.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #352 on: August 21, 2016, 10:56:13 AM »
My intent with that was that every bomber and attack pilot would get at least two missions to ships out of the whole event.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #353 on: August 21, 2016, 11:03:29 AM »
Here's what I'm going to do, though.

No one has said that they think the layout of targets is too restricted, but ROC feels they are too spread out, and Red, you, too, think so once ships are included.

I'm going to rework the targets and see what you guys think.

Offline ROC

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #354 on: August 21, 2016, 11:24:24 AM »
Quote
I have never in any scenario seen 3 fields capped at the same time and didn't think the allies would end up using a13, but it's a valid point -- no reason not to make things symmetric nonetheless.
Umm, we did it in Dnieper :) Last event, you helped cap one of them.  Had the two forward fields capped and the rear ward field monitored and caught the attack group heading out, and that was done without the fields being the actual targets.
 
Never underestimate the creativity of the players.  If you didn't think they would use it, it shouldn't have been in, these crafty buggers will use whatever is available in ways you can't imagine :)  That's why I try to push the potential to the extremes to see what can be done and ignore the intent.  Intent is irrelevant, you are building the board, they are going to play the game their way.  Every possible use, combination, exploitable advantage and weakness needs to be looked at and considered, as much as possible.  The players will find them, and your intent will be tossed :) 

Quote
If we disagree, it isn't because I didn't.  It's because we have different judgements.
We do, I offered mine, it's your show :)  Thanks for considering the concerns.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2016, 11:39:42 AM by ROC »
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #355 on: August 21, 2016, 12:44:04 PM »
Thanks for considering the concerns.

Thanks to you, as well, ROC.  I do very much appreciate all the feedback you have given.  Even if I have a different opinion on something, I do not preclude the possibility that I am wrong, and I do my best to re-examine and consider.  In the case of targets and focus of battle, I am going to rework things and see what you think.

Offline ROC

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #356 on: August 21, 2016, 01:14:17 PM »
Quote
In the case of targets and focus of battle, I am going to rework things and see what you think.
I've given you plenty to think about and re-consider, and at this point, getting my stamp of approval may be seen as swaying the design. That isn't my intention, to sway in either direction.  So, I've had my say, you know your design, know what kind of balance I think is important and in your view you will balance it.  I won't be commenting further on the design, you know I'm going to fly Axis, my input is over.
 :salute
ROC
Nothing clever here.  Please, move along.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #357 on: August 21, 2016, 02:35:53 PM »
We can't preclude swaying of design unless we eliminate discussion -- but input here is valuable even so.

I hope that you will still give your opinion and not be deterred -- and thank you very much for your input so far.  :aok

Offline Brooke

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #358 on: August 22, 2016, 02:24:51 AM »
Version 10 up.  Hit refresh to make sure you get it.

http://electraforge.com/brooke/flightsims/scenarios/201610_TunisiaFeb43/rules.html

See change log for the changes.

The combat area is now about 4x3 sectors, and some launch locations have been moved closer in.  I am confident that this event will have plenty of action.  :aok

Offline Zoney

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Re: Suggestions regarding next Scenario (October, 2016)
« Reply #359 on: August 22, 2016, 09:08:19 AM »
I am confident you are doing everything you can to make this event fun.
Wag more, bark less.