Tired of the cannons

[Citabria]

any plane can turn with any other plane (excluding spitfires) with the right circumstances.


most of the time fuel and ammo wieght will determine a real close stall fight for obvious reasons.

[bashwolf]

Hiya  Ladies n Gents.

I have flown the f4c like everyone said beat his E state than his all yours to play with an rape that go goes for any plane but people already know that.  205 does a great job depeleting f4c E state nicely (again just have to avoid those HO's and there 1 bullet shots).

Bash

[Ripsnort]

 

Originally posted by bashwolf:
(again just have to avoid those HO's and there 1 bullet shots).

Bash

And, their D1.0>> shots!

[Duckwing6]

I always hear about D1.0 + shots .. weird .. havn't been killed since 2 tours at least like that ... the furthest out was a SPIT at 850 yards who sprayed and praed me and musta have killed me with his last cannon round..
you múst have your convergenze REALLY far out to get your bullets to even get within the target area ..

[This message has been edited by Duckwing6 (edited 05-24-2000).]

[Pollock]

To add to the endless issue, I too am frustrated with the turbo lasers of the 1C.
I wish Hitech would look at every post that has '1 ping dead'to understand how IMO unfair this is or change the name of the game to 'Cannon Aces'.

[Ripsnort]

Duckwing, come grab me in Main sometime, we'll re-create the same tests that Silat and I did, D1.0 and above (on both FE's) cannon shots in hog.  Very easy to reproduce.  Gimme a hollar!  I'll make a believer out of ya.

BTW, the convergence in the tests was set at 375.

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-24-2000).]

[MANDOBLE]

 

Originally posted by -lazs-:
mandoble.... The G10 will outturn the -1c or D.  In all cases except extreme low speed using full flaps the porcine 190
A8 will also outturn the corsair.

Sure, a 25% fuel loaded G10 or A8 will outturn a F4U1-D/C loaded with 100% fuel, 2 1000 lb bombs and rockets ...
-Lazs- you should fly all the three planes offline and do the next test:
1 - Select 4 different g loads.
2 - Select 4 different starts speeds.
3 - Select 4 different altitudes.
4 - Combine all the above and take times for 360 degree turn, then for two turns, then for three.
5 - Note the final altitude after each test.

[Vermillion]

Ripsnort, please try to reproduce it with the target doing a lazy 1 g defensive turn in the extension, and see if you can hit.

Straight and Level isn't much of a test.

If anyone flies straight and level with and enemy at 1k they deserve to get hit  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Pongo]

Really...At 2/3rds of a mile..

[Greg 'wmutt' Cook]

 

Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Hey Wmutt, were a small crew, who didya in at 25k?

I'm not sure, He was a gentleman and after putting holes in my radiator and removing my rudder allowed me to dive low and disengage. Salute to whoever it was though, and I hope it wasn't too easy for ya  



------------------
Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels

[Ripsnort]

   

Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ripsnort, please try to reproduce it with the target doing a lazy 1 g defensive turn in the extension, and see if you can hit.

Straight and Level isn't much of a test.

If anyone flies straight and level with and enemy at 1k they deserve to get hit    

Verm, I don't know what significance  that would show, it would just be testing my ability to hit a moving target.  My point is, should one consistently be able to hit a target at that distance without severe bullet drop from a 20mm shell at D1.0 >> ?  I'm no ballistics experten, but I can remember a whole lotta squeaking in WB's when D10 shots were downing pilots (that would be D1.0 here).



[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-24-2000).]

[-lazs-]

mandoble... Are you saying you have done such testing?   If you have then i would be very much interested in seeing and trying to duplicate your results.  

if you read the thread "ok, help me out here" you will see a turn test giving time and speed at sea level that was done by wells... i get numbers that are very close to his.   the G10 and even the 190 will outturn the Hog...  A "real" comparison of a 1D and a 190A5 had the Hog gaining 1 turn in 3 on the 190.     Other tests have the Hog easily outturning a P51B.    Something is wrong.

As for the 1C guns... i don't fly it much and I never find it to be much of a threat.
lazs

[Hooligan]

Ripsnort:

The squeaking in WB about long range shots was primarily because there was no dispersion.  In this game at 1000+ yard the dispersion pattern is pretty huge and I doubt you can do much better than 1% or 2% in accuracy.  Still if the target is going straight and somebody is willing to expend 500 or 600 shells this is going to yield enough hits to kill the aircraft with 20mm.  Concerning bullet drop:  The Hispanos have a much flatter trajectory than the Mg151 shells, primarily due to their higher speed.  Hispano rounds are going to catch that 1000 yard target several hundred yards closer than Mg151 rounds and the drop in the Hispano rounds is going to be less than a third of the drop of the Mg151 rounds.

Hooligan

[Vermillion]

What Hooligan Said  

Ballistically it is very possible to hit and seriously damage non-manuevering targets at 1,000 yards with weapons such as .50's MG's and 20mm Cannons in real life.

Just look at the ballistic numbers. Hell, a .22 caliber rimfire cartridge is reportedly lethal up to over a mile, which is 1760 yards, and you expect a 20mm cannon at 2/3rds of that range to not hurt you?

In Warbirds, there was no dispersion at that time, and people were scoring kills at those ranges against manuvering targets. Quite a different situation. And we won't even go into the issue that the shells in WB's were the size of "beach balls".

And even then the arguement was that "in real life" pilots didn't score kills like that. Well, this isn't real life, our sim pilots have a life times worth of gunnery experience compared to WWII pilots, plus we have instant radar ranging with the icon system that is in use in the arena.

Even with that arguement, pilot accounts of scoring kills at that range are documented in both after action reports and in gun camera footage that is commercially available today.

Its just that kills at that range were not common in real life. And they are not common in AH.

So yes, if in your tests your "target fighter" is flying straight and level, your on his direct six, and you fire enough ammunition to overcome dispersion and bad aim, you should be able to easily shoot him down. Especially with 20mm cannons since most of their lethality comes from the explosive force of the shell which is consistent no matter the range, unlike the kinetic energy which disapates the farther downrange you go.


------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Pongo]

Just look at the ballistic numbers. Hell, a .22 caliber rimfire cartridge is reportedly lethal up to over a mile, which is 1760 yards, and you expect a 20mm cannon at 2/3rds of that range to not hurt you?

are we deciding on the practicality of killing fighters at 1000 yards based on the warning on a box of 22 rimfires now?

It is rediculous. The guns would burn out long befor you hit a target at 1000yards.
Park your car and take 1000 running steps away from it.
I have gotten 2 kills with the 1c in the last week at slightly less then 900 yards. No long burst no hosing the target

Ratio comparisons are meaningless in regards this discussion. How far does the 151 round drop in 600 yards. How far does the HS round drop?