Author Topic: Combat Trim  (Read 6000 times)

Offline Vudak

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2016, 08:09:29 AM »
I trained with TC too but he told me to trim out between 315 and 325 I believe, so there's a lot of info going around.

Regardless, I wonder how much E I'm burning with ct on, flaps out, and ct pushing me nose as high as possible the whole time.
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2016, 08:43:44 AM »
I leave CT on in the MA, it doesn't hinder general combat manoeuvres.
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Offline Scca

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2016, 09:06:39 AM »
I leave CT on in the MA, it doesn't hinder general combat manoeuvres.
i think it's plane and fighting style dependent. Fly a hog with flaps out, big difference. Fly a 190 BNZ style, very little difference.
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Offline Vudak

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2016, 09:29:34 AM »
i think it's plane and fighting style dependent. Fly a hog with flaps out, big difference. Fly a 190 BNZ style, very little difference.
Do you have to mess with aileron trim at all or are you just playing around with elevator, btw? Or do you simply turn off CT when you drop your first flap and call it a day.

If I'm at flap speed and not on initial climb out, I likely am in the middle of some maneuver and not flying level... do you find any adverse effects to turning off CT in the middle of a hard turn/barrel roll/etc.?

Thanks for your help
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Offline Scca

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 10:10:39 AM »
Do you have to mess with aileron trim at all or are you just playing around with elevator, btw? Or do you simply turn off CT when you drop your first flap and call it a day.

If I'm at flap speed and not on initial climb out, I likely am in the middle of some maneuver and not flying level... do you find any adverse effects to turning off CT in the middle of a hard turn/barrel roll/etc.?

Thanks for your help
I just toggle it off when I engage and things start to get twisty, typically at a specific speed. 

To review, CT sets trim automatically based on speed (more or less). Auto climb is an adaptation of combat trim. It sets trim to maintain a set speed. That speed results in a climb at full power, and can be used to descend similarly  (power off, turn on "auto climb", and you will descend at that speed).  At other times, CT tries to set the trim tabs so you have zero stick deflection to stay on that course.  It's also assuming level flight, no flaps basically (could be wrong on that, but that's what it feels like)

I may not be the expert, but here's what I've experienced. CT reacts a little slow, and during violent maneuvers where your speed changes quickly, CT can't keep up.  I see it most effecting me when I go nose up in a zoom climb after a con.  As I rapidly slow down with CT on, the nose pitches up violently, so much so forward pressure on the stick is required to keep it straight.  Sometimes, when getting really slow it's so harsh, I can't keep on the same vector with full forward stick.  To solve that problem, in a hog as things start, I turn it off, in hog at about 200 MPH, this freezes the trim tabs where they are.  I don't feel any issues as I get slower, if I seem to be holding too much pressure to maintain my vector, I turn it on for a second, it resets, then I turn it off again.  Normally, I feel nothing until speeds pick back up (like red guy is now diving toward their ack), and I notice it starts to nose up the faster I go.  No biggie, I just hit the switch and turn it back on.  It's never a dramatic change, subtle really.  Through out a fight I turn it on and off depending on how much constant pressure I need on the stick for the plane to do what I want.  If I am in a real slow fight and notice it's nosing up (or down) I hit the switch on then off, and things equalize.

Try it once.  Leave CT on, go into a zoom climb, pop flaps near the top and you will see it rolls over almost on it's own when you get really slow.  Try it again, turning CT off as you zoom climb and you will see that at the top, you have to provide the incentive to flop over on your back.  You can also see the effect when landing.  Most planes nose up when you drop flaps.  Turn CT off just before you do that, and it's less apparent. 

Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Offline Clifra Jones

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 01:01:12 PM »
I use it to quickly toggle to correct the trim at a given speed. Flying the 38 CT doesn't get it for me. It seems to like to keep the nose too heavy in dives and too light in turn fights. I manually trim a bit nose low when turning as it's natural to pull through a turn than push the nose back down. Same for dives where I'll trim up to maintain better control. Either way, once I've turned it off I'm adjusting manually until I'm cruising somewhere again.

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This is pretty much how I use it. Hit it to adjust trim to a given flight speed. As it shuts off the moment you apply manual trim it is off for me most of the time in combat. I have trim on a 4 way hat on the stick under my thumb so I am constantly adjusting trim to apply small adjustments, primarily in pitch. If I had to do that on a keyboard I would go nuts, I'd probably just leave CT on.

For beginners i would say leave it on until you know how trim affects the aircraft.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 01:19:18 PM by Clifra Jones »

Offline Clifra Jones

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 01:11:26 PM »
I hadn't. Thanks for the link. I don't use the auto trim for speed or angle unless I'm on climbout. I never thought of using them during a fight.


All of these will snap your wings level. I don't see how you can use those modes in a fight. AT for speed can kill you if your low and slow! I will use AT for angles sometimes if I am zooming up or in a controlled dive as pitch trim still works in that mode.

Offline Clifra Jones

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 01:14:41 PM »
Trim is used to reduce work in the cockpit. Instead of holding the stick and rudder in position for your current speed and attitude, trim does it for you. It doesn't matter what you use to move your control surfaces, trim or stick or pedals, just center the ball for minimum drag. Using auto angle (shift x) will set your trim for your current speed. To see the effect of rudder trim on your speed just watch the speedometer as you yaw a little.

All true, but in AH trim actually moves the control surfaces, unlike trim tabs in real life. So you can use trim for fine adjustments to get the piper on target, pull a control locked aircraft out of a dive, etc.

Offline FLS

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2016, 01:17:36 PM »
All true, but in AH trim actually moves the control surfaces, unlike trim tabs in real life. So you can use trim for fine adjustments to get the piper on target, pull a control locked aircraft out of a dive, etc.

In real life the trim tabs move the control surfaces and can pull a locked aircraft out of a dive so what's the difference?

Offline Clifra Jones

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2016, 01:29:19 PM »
In real life the trim tabs move the control surfaces and can pull a locked aircraft out of a dive so what's the difference?

Well, I'll have to admit, I did not know that.

Offline FLS

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2016, 01:35:58 PM »
Well, I'll have to admit, I did not know that.

The reason trim tabs move the stick in real aircraft is because the stick is connected to the control surfaces that the trim tabs move.

The effect of trim in AH is the same as in real aircraft except it doesn't change your stick position. You can still trim forces off your stick but you're trimming off the spring force as the stick moves back to center. 

Offline Pudgie

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Re: Combat Trim
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2016, 08:11:37 PM »
I found CT to be too cumbersome and slow for me so I turned off all axis scaling on my HOTAS as the pots tested to be stable enough to allow this then use the autopilot-level to "trim" up making note of the airspeed that I'm trimming at AND making sure that I have the stick and rudders CENTERED (AH trims the plane forces to the stick\rudder control center where as in RL you're trim to center the stick\rudder control to the plane forces) then do my thing as this trims up very fast and can be done during a fight, usually when extending to prepare for another merge.

I've found that the closer the stick\rudder control is to true center (no deadband or damping applied) the better the in game trim results are, at least for me they are. I also should note that I'm also running my CH HOTAS thru a Gigabyte USB 3.1\3.0 Type C USB\PCI-E add-in card in the 3rd CPU-dedicated PCI-E x16 slot (by-passes the X99 chipset) using power off the PCI-E slot which helps my HOTAS stick\rudder movements to be even more stable than they tested to be.......so I'm not using a std USB mobo header cluster w\ my HOTAS as I had issues using them thru my mobo USB headers (POST ID issues) when I upgraded to the CPU\mobo\mem in sig some time back.

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