Author Topic: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment  (Read 8236 times)

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11604
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2016, 05:28:40 PM »
No.  I felt shooting at the target while flying level would give me the most easily observable effect of yaw alone.

The reason I asked is that ground strafing seems to hit around 80% of yaw angle. Let me know if you see the same thing.    :salute

Offline Kingpin

  • AH Training Corps
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1070
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2016, 05:30:02 PM »
The reason I asked is that ground strafing seems to hit around 80% of yaw angle. Let me know if you see the same thing.    :salute

Interesting.  Will test.
Quote from: bozon
For those of us playing this game for well over a decade, Aces High is more of a social club. The game just provides the framework. I keep logging in for the people and Pipz was the kind that you keep coming to meet again.

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11604
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2016, 05:41:08 PM »
I think there's another ballistics demo 1K behind a bomber.   :D

Offline Dobs

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 644
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2016, 07:33:18 PM »

I'm no aerodynamics expert, but I think the biggest factors (of yaw effect on ballistics) would be the air speed and the range.  At WWII aircraft speeds (esp. while yawing) and WWII firing ranges, I simply think any effect is just negligible.

From the P47 Gunnery section:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYLUEtR2VmanFzY1U/view?usp=sharing
GTX 980TI
Intel I7-6700K @4GHZ
32GB RAM
Fly at 3840x 2160 resolution

Offline Scca

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2718
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2016, 08:14:30 AM »
I don't use 50 cals at all but to me it looked like you weren't pulling enough lead by a long way.
Agreed..

I do a lot of bomber hunting, and have pretty good success (32 bombers last tour).  I fly the 47M mostly, so I am familiar with 50 cals. 

You were defiantly low/behind them early in the pass.  I will save a film for you of one of my passes, but at the approach angle you were at, you should have barely been able to see the nose of the bomber to get hits on the main body half way down. 

That said, my hit% is way down because I can't see the tracers.  I hope they fix it, but if they don't, I will adjust eventually. 
Flying as AkMeathd - CO Arabian Knights
Working on my bbs cred one post at a time

http://www.arabian-knights.org

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11604
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2016, 10:54:00 AM »
From the P47 Gunnery section:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-kwhapBgCtYLUEtR2VmanFzY1U/view?usp=sharing

Context is always nice. I think the effect of yaw when shooting at ground targets is well known even if the percentage of error isn't.

Offline Dobs

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 644
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2016, 12:39:14 PM »
Yaw effect when shooting...doesn't matter air or ground...effect is the same.

GTX 980TI
Intel I7-6700K @4GHZ
32GB RAM
Fly at 3840x 2160 resolution

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11604
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2016, 12:43:06 PM »
Yaw effect when shooting...doesn't matter air or ground...effect is the same.

The forward motion of the aircraft added to the projectiles is canceled by the fixed distance target moving at the same speed.

Offline Dobs

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 644
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2016, 05:23:35 PM »
The forward motion of the aircraft added to the projectiles is canceled by the fixed distance target moving at the same speed.
Umm...no. 

So you are saying the fact that you are in a skid and because your target is moving, the bullets fired into a windstream of 200-400 mph are not affected?



A nice excerpt from a forum:
From the top:

You are flying along at 360kph with 5 degrees of slip and fire at some object 300m away centered in your gunsight.
You bullet has a sideways motion of 100m/sec x sin(5) due to your forward motion being 5 degrees off your direction
of aim. Sin(5) = .0872, in one full second the bullet will be about 9m off to the side towards the direction of
flight. 300m takes more like 1/3rd of a second to reach.
IF the target is flying parallel to our plane at the same speed then he will move to the side at the same speed as
the shots do or just a tiny bit faster -- he will appear to stay directly in your sights while your shots appear
to be curving slightly away from your pipper.
IF the target is flying straight away from your sight, 5 degrees off parallel to your course then your shots will
miss by a meter or more.
IF the target is coming at you then the drift of your shots will be opposite to his drift, miss by more.

This is simple geometry. When geometry is unreal then check your assumptions again.

The longer the range, the greater the gap to deal with. At under 100m the bullet speed makes the difference very
small, by 200m you might not hit the part of the plane you aimed for, at 300m+ it's easy to miss a target.

If you are flying along and see an enemy plane close to the pipper then rudder over to center it, you are probably
in slip right then. Just know it and deal with it, the shot does not go where the pointed at the moment the shot
was made. Your speed, the bullet speed and the angle of slip have everything to do with it even before looking at
a target.

Believing that your shots all go where the pipper pointed is the dweeb mistake not to make. They don't.

Add in that ruddering the pipper over adds yaw which makes one wing go up and the other go down as well as gets
some nose up or down (tiny shifts depending on the rudder use) and in general, wobbles the nose of the plane.
Oh but that's supposed to be a modeling problem! Is it a pilot problem? Tiny nose shift = pipper moved 1+ tics!

Just to shake you all up, there's the vertical equivalent of slip as well. When I am flying slow my AOA must be
higher to generate the lift I need to follow my path. When I am flying fast my AOA must be lower. That moves
my sight up and down relative to my path. At some speed it's probably right but yeah there's vertical slip.


Break Break


 Anyhow, it appears from flying the game that it is not modeled (nor has it been modeled in anygame that I've been in).

GTX 980TI
Intel I7-6700K @4GHZ
32GB RAM
Fly at 3840x 2160 resolution

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11604
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2016, 05:38:58 PM »
Dobs I already mentioned the yaw angle crosswind effect. I think it's negligible given the gun dispersion and typical yaw angle. Kingpin already told you drag is modeled.

Edit: missed an arrow on my tablet.

AFAIK your pic shows what happens in AH. Don't forget the yaw adds an opposed force to the side drag from the forward motion of the aircraft.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 05:49:51 PM by FLS »

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2016, 06:07:18 PM »
DOBs this is an interesting show of physics aptitude and an exhilarating whizzing match to watch. Usually in the past when someone new to Aces High starts picking these kinds of tech matches with ongoing posts targeting the real world tech and how Hitech programed it. They are either trying to use it as an interview to get noticed by the Trainers, or become the new big dog of the forums. Were you a Trainer or one of WB's go to experts for everything before you left that game?

The real answer you want about this kind of ballistics modeling can only come from Hitech.
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline Dobs

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 644
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2016, 10:46:01 PM »
Just trying to figure out the gunnery model, i.e. if the sight is lying to me if I kick rudder.

From what I've seen....it shoots where it is pointed.

GTX 980TI
Intel I7-6700K @4GHZ
32GB RAM
Fly at 3840x 2160 resolution

Offline bustr

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12436
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2016, 11:12:31 PM »
You have opened a window for a breeze that someone like FLS enjoys because you argue to his bliss. So in War Birds were you a member of the trainers there?
bustr - POTW 1st Wing


This is like the old joke that voters are harsher to their beer brewer if he has an outage, than their politicians after raising their taxes. Death and taxes are certain but, fun and sex is only now.

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11604
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2016, 12:17:22 AM »
Just trying to figure out the gunnery model, i.e. if the sight is lying to me if I kick rudder.

From what I've seen....it shoots where it is pointed.

Most guns do. You want to consider momentum from the aircraft's forward motion as well as drag from the atmosphere.

If you get in a B-17 and man a turret you can put a target abeam and shoot directly crosswind for maximum drag perpendicular to trajectory.   :aok
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 12:50:32 AM by FLS »

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8492
Re: Gunnery woes - I think we are all feeling them at the moment
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2016, 01:02:42 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: September 22, 2016, 10:55:38 AM by Skuzzy »
Happy Friday Pipz!
-=Army of Muppets=-
"Get stuffed Skyyr, you freak" - Zack1234