Author Topic: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves  (Read 41322 times)

Offline katanaso

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #255 on: September 29, 2016, 10:46:43 AM »
Sorry, double posted by accident.
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Offline katanaso

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #256 on: September 29, 2016, 10:51:58 AM »
What you're basically saying then is this "snap roll" is easily reproducible for testing and therefore useable in game no different than the AW 190

They're not really the same, but I was comparing the two as means that persons learned to take advantage of things. 

Inducing a snap roll is easy -- controlling it, and exiting where I want, is not easy, at least for me.
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Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #257 on: September 29, 2016, 10:53:08 AM »
Oh, you're nitpicking now.  I see what you did.  lol  Stop it!  Yes, there's not a specific 'high speed snap roll' model that differs from the 'flight model'. 

How about this:  they've learned to take advantage of the nuances of the 'high speed snap roll' (initially, your phrase) within the AH3 flight model.  Better?   :D

I can't watch videos at the moment.  I'm tying this stuff between emails and meetings. 

If I have time tonight, I'll look at a film from last night to see the entry/exit speed of the plane doing it.  I'll also try myself, but I've never really tried it other than in a 38.  When I spin or snap roll, I usually end up in front of the bad guy more so than normal. :)

Consider the difference between exploiting the model and exploiting the physics of flight.   :D 

Offline katanaso

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #258 on: September 29, 2016, 10:58:28 AM »
Consider the difference between exploiting the model and exploiting the physics of flight.   :D

I understand.  See post above.  Controlling it so well.  That's the flight model.  'Exploit' sounds bad though, almost accusatory, even though it's not meant as such.  :)
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Offline Hungry

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #259 on: September 29, 2016, 11:00:25 AM »
They're not really the same, but I was comparing the two as means that persons learned to take advantage of things. 

Inducing a snap roll is easy -- controlling it, and exiting where I want, is not easy, at least for me.

I understand and Wiley's right, data, show them the data, was just trying to make the point that yes they are comparable if in AH3 it is usable and easily repeatable for use as an advantage.  Wish I could remember the name of the pilot in AWFR that used it somebody's son his name escapes me started with a W ?
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Offline Dobs

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #260 on: September 29, 2016, 11:02:30 AM »
So concepts of physics are not allowed here....got it.



Well FLS, tell me what the airspeed is supposed to be from a " departing controlled flight" aircraft and I'll test to that.  How does that sound?
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Offline katanaso

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #261 on: September 29, 2016, 11:06:55 AM »
I understand and Wiley's right, data, show them the data, was just trying to make the point that yes they are comparable if in AH3 it is usable and easily repeatable for use as an advantage.  Wish I could remember the name of the pilot in AWFR that used it somebody's son his name escapes me started with a W ?

I can't remember his name either.  It was Soup's/4510 son, as I recall.  I'm sure the other older guys know it.

You're absolutely right though, as far as showing HTC data.

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Offline Lazerr

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #262 on: September 29, 2016, 11:22:47 AM »
There is no 'high speed snap roll model', there is only the flight model.   Did you watch my videos?  :D

I'd rather the people posting without data learn the benefits of testing for themselves. Nobody is looking at how much speed is lost in game or can say how much speed should be lost.
I would try to pull the move off,  but on my end it looks impossible.  I wouldnt even know where to start.

Offline Drane

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #263 on: September 29, 2016, 11:28:39 AM »
So concepts of physics are not allowed here....got it.

film deleted

Well FLS, tell me what the airspeed is supposed to be from a " departing controlled flight" aircraft and I'll test to that.  How does that sound?

Dobs set AH to auto film and save any films that you saw the flippy thing and post it along with link to your screen capture film for HiTech. If the ahf film is too big you can edit it to be shorter.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 11:31:20 AM by Drane »
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Offline Dawger

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #264 on: September 29, 2016, 12:02:31 PM »
A snap roll is an accelerated stall with autorotation induced by application of full rudder. Essentially a one turn spin on a horizontal plane.

The aircraft is stalled and requires a brief period unloaded or nearly so to recover.

Many WWII era fighters were prohibited from snap rolls or "flick" rolls as they are sometimes called.

They must be performed at a relatively low airspeed for the required stall to happen quickly or before breaking the wing off.

There is significant speed loss when performing them.


Offline hitech

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #265 on: September 29, 2016, 12:11:52 PM »
This thread is really starting to piss me off.

I have told everyone directly do not confuse what you see some one do and the flight model. You could easy be seeing the other guy do something that is a simple bug in the net code and nothing to do with the flight model.

So people again jump in because the saw someone tumble and claim it is the flight model. If you think somethings wrong with the flight model go film yourself doing something you do not think is correct.

I stated very early DO NOT CONFUSE THE OTHER PLANE AND YOUR PLANE.

I have asked for films AH Films let me debug stuff, a video does not help me debug.

So far I have seen one, and that was nothing but a simple snap roll.

HiTech


Offline LCADolby

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #266 on: September 29, 2016, 12:15:28 PM »
I sent a film in HiTech and it was too fast to be a snap roll, I don't know of a niki snap rolling 180' in less than 0.1 of a second.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #267 on: September 29, 2016, 12:17:18 PM »
I sent a film in HiTech and it was too fast to be a snap roll, I don't know of a niki snap rolling 180' in less than 0.1 of a second.

I have not seen yours did you post it in the bug forum?

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Offline FLS

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #268 on: September 29, 2016, 12:18:09 PM »
They're not really the same, but I was comparing the two as means that persons learned to take advantage of things. 

Inducing a snap roll is easy -- controlling it, and exiting where I want, is not easy, at least for me.

Because P-38.   :D    You want a single engine aircraft for snap roll tricks.   The P-38 likes dual throttle flat spin tricks.  :aok

I would try to pull the move off,  but on my end it looks impossible.  I wouldnt even know where to start.

A snap roll is caused by a loss of lift on one wing. The lift on the other wing rolls the aircraft. You can snap roll with or against the propeller rotation. Consider a 10,000 lb aircraft in a 4g turn. That's 40,000 lbs of lift, call it 20,000 lbs per wing in a simplified explanation, now you lose lift on one wing and the other wing has a 20,000 lb force rolling the aircraft. In level flight it's only a 5,000 lb force but you can still see why it's called a snap roll. If you want to maintain a snap roll you can add aileron to the roll.

To initiate a snap roll just yank the stick back, pushing and holding a rudder pedal forward will add yaw. You can push the stick forward for a negative snap roll.  Moving the stick into a corner rather than straight back will increase the roll. Film and smoke or trails will help you see what's happening.

The prohibition against snap rolls in pilot manuals mentions altitude loss and possible airframe damage. That doesn't mean that an ascending snap roll with sufficient momentum will cause altitude loss but you'll certainly see a speed difference.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2016, 12:24:27 PM by FLS »

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Planes flipping during agressive defensive moves
« Reply #269 on: September 29, 2016, 12:22:03 PM »
Wise words my man, but I'm not talking trash about the guy, I actually enjoy StarFox.

Hitech has his reasons but he his not the one that day after day for 2 years-ish dogfighted Skyyr nor has been tangling with StarFox for the last few months. I have been playing since Beta and never ever did someone brand new showed up and mastered the game right away to Skyyr's level. As stated by others, the flying styles of some can be picked up by veterans. It's not only the flying style, it's the similarity of the tactics used, the planes, the extensive number of hours, the engine cutting, the gunnery accuracy, the Ch200 'debating' and the "tricks". Furthermore, and I will not go in the specifics, stuffs happened with Lonewolf in the DA then StarFox in the MA that truly seemed like an attempt to settle old scores from Skyyr.

If I was the only one to be convinced of it ... so be it ... but I am joined by numerous experienced veterans. I don't buy it.  :)

Skyyr can't hide himself at all, his fly, antics, headhunting, shades is incomparable. Except with Fulcrum, he has had the ability to change names and set up numerous BBS account. I wonder if information has passed between these former squadmates  on how to hide ID from HTC. We all know Fulcrum, Hoplite and Invictus plus others are one in the same on the BBS and game. As Shida said, everything can be hidden if you really want it to be. 10 years ago people were creating virtual machines within there own PCs to get around bans within SWAT4 of all things. Lords knows how easy it is now.
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