Bomber unfriendly (repost from beta since that's closed + additional comments)

[molybdenum]

There's a lot I don't like about ah3 (sorry) but i'll focus on my top 4.

1) Pre-existing damage to town buildings and strat objects is a lot less obvious--it's hard to tell what's up and what's down in your bombsite, so I find myself bombing dead stuff unnecessarily.

2) As for the bombsite, it has a narrower field of view than in AH2. I find my target coming into bombsite view at the last moment so it's harder to line up properly.

3) (erased, we have maps now)

4) Bombs cause strats significantly less damage in AH3 than AH2, making much of what I do not worth doing (and thus the game not worth playing). Using Tu2s as an example and starting with my strat target full up...

AAA strat: AH2 38%, AH3 71%
City:        AH2 82%, AH3 95%

Those are my average #s. Granted I haven't figured out the sweet spots at the strats in AH3 yet so I'm inefficient in AH3, but really, that much difference? And I took down 13 objects in my one AH3 city run (which is my average in AH2), but for far inferior results. Are there that many more objects to kill at city, so much smaller % can be taken down on one run? Then what's the point in flying buffs for an hour when the result is negligible?

Really hope these things get adjusted. It's simply not fun any more feeling what I'm doing is virtually useless.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lusche commented that it was unrealistic to be able to identify bombed vs not-bombed town objects from 34k, which is true: but my alt for bombing towns has never been above 14k thus far in ah3.

What's inspired me to revisit the topic is seeing where the most important strat (AAA) was placed in the revamped Crater map, nitside. Gotta fly through a lot of dar rings to get there if you're bish (which is fine, but then you need a lotta alt once you hit them in order to survive, which means that much more gametime absorbed in something boring). Unless you don't mind flying afk in very killable bombers, highly visible as such, through many enemy sectors, as you watch TV or whatever...and IF you get there (as I posted above) the amount of damage you can do is significantly less.

A lot of people play the game for the furball, and I get that, more power to them. But bomber pilots mostly fly what they do because the strategic aspect of the game is important to them. Minimize the effect we have to the extent AH3 currently has done and why bother playing? The only fun I'm having right now is in a wirble.

[dallash]

Just to add to that.

I wonder what the though process was on moving the strats farther back from the main battle area when getting Greebo's Crater converted to AH3?
Was it to do with the terrain editor, or did someone actually think it was too easy to hit strats, thus making the map less fun?

With the number of returning fighter pilots, I think (if the latter were true) that problem solved itself.

Just curious.

And it does seem that even at 10-12K with no clouds, it is very difficult to see what is up/down in a town. Is that by design? I have a very nice system with visibility and detail turned all the way up.

Would love to hear thoughts.

Dallash
v97th HBG

[BowHTR]

There's a lot I don't like about ah3 (sorry) but i'll focus on my top 4.

1) Pre-existing damage to town buildings and strat objects is a lot less obvious--it's hard to tell what's up and what's down in your bombsite, so I find myself bombing dead stuff unnecessarily.

2) As for the bombsite, it has a narrower field of view than in AH2. I find my target coming into bombsite view at the last moment so it's harder to line up properly.

3) Maps! Need maps of targets, like in AH2! Buff pilots don't just throw ords around, they bomb with a purpose. Need to know what's where so we can line up on our targets.
 
4) Bombs cause strats significantly less damage in AH3 than AH2, making much of what I do not worth doing (and thus the game not worth playing). Using Tu2s as an example and starting with my strat target full up...

3. You can find a few different types of maps in this thread. http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,378849.60.html

4. 1 person should not be able to greatly effect the strats. It should take multiple formations of bombers to make a significant impact.

AH3 is not AH2. At some point people will have to accept that it is a different game and that gameplay is not going to be the same as AH2.

[Lusche]

4) Bombs cause strats significantly less damage in AH3 than AH2, making much of what I do not worth doing (and thus the game not worth playing). Using Tu2s as an example and starting with my strat target full up...

AAA strat: AH2 38%, AH3 71%
City:        AH2 82%, AH3 95%

A lot of people play the game for the furball, and I get that, more power to them. But bomber pilots mostly fly what they do because the strategic aspect of the game is important to them. Minimize the effect we have to the extent AH3 currently has done and why bother playing? The only fun I'm having right now is in a wirble.

The strategic aspect actually got somewhat improved by it.

Since the central strat was dissolved, AHII seriously lacked a strategic target worth a bomber mission. Each of the single strat targets was easily smashed by a single player, even the City.
Consequently, the bigger missions almost disappeared from AH, because there was no reason for them. That took away a part of AH's gameplay. Strategic bombing was often reduced to a few short ranged dashes by single bombers, (and making defense of the strats almost pointless).

Now there is a single target that can not be totally obliterated by a single player: The city. As a single bomber pilot, you can still have a tremendous impact on the game: Sink CV's (and thus ending a while battle!), shut down bases, white flag the towns (even easier now) and kill the HQ. Factories can still be badly mauled by a single player.
And even the City can be brought down by at least 25% in a good B-29 run by a single player - which doubles downtime of towns. Still a significant impact.

The claim a single bomber pilot has not much left to do or only has little impact now is vastly exaggerated. You just might upgrade your tactic and adjust your plane choice. And if you really insist on killing the city, do the things that really had been one of the great things back in the day: Do a proper bombing mission.

[dallash]

I am not complaining about the differences. So far the uptake in the number of players seems to indicate our beloved time-waster will be around for a while longer (hopefully much longer).

It is too early for me to tell what the new version is doing to the gameplay. I don't fly during the very heavy times, so I have not formed an opinion yet.

I didn't realize what the dwindling of players in AH2 had done to gameplay, because it happened slowly. It's a little more evident now that so many fighter pilots are on. That dynamic in and of itself makes it more risky for less reward to fly bombers alone with no escorts.

It's not as easy for a bomber pilot to pop in and do something useful or significant on his/her own. But the majority of players are fighter pilots, and their needs should be addressed first, and I get that. But given the time a bomber pilot needs to invest to "help the team", it would just be nice to be able to "help the team" without having to scrounge a mission up when few are on, or without having to up B29s, which ENY seems to deny so often.

On a bright note...I may just be lucky, but it feels like I am having much better success from my gunner positions because of better graphics, and the ability to see when my MG rounds are hitting enemy airplanes. I guess time wil tell whether that holds true.

Dallash
v97th HBG

[Lusche]

. But given the time a bomber pilot needs to invest to "help the team", it would just be nice to be able to "help the team" without having to scrounge a mission up when few are on, or without having to up B29s, which ENY seems to deny so often.

The only strategic target where a single player has really hard time to make a big impact without flying the B-29 is the City.
For example a few days ago I attacked the AA factory in a medium bomber, the B-26. Destroyed 31 factory buildings, which increased the AA downtimes from 30 to about 63 minutes (a AA factory has 112 buldings). Doubled the downtime by a single medium bomber sortie. 
A few hours before id did a similar sortie in a G4M, an ENY 30 bomber. Result: 25 buildings destroyed, that's an additional 26 minutes downtime on all AA guns.

Right now, I'm again in a G4M on the way to a factory, because I was ENY'd out of 'better' bombers. At takeoff, we had 16 Knight, 16 Bishops, but only 2(!) Rooks online. This imbalance between countries is a real problem

[molybdenum]

"4. 1 person should not be able to greatly effect the strats. It should take multiple formations of bombers to make a significant impact."

You rarely get multiple formations of bombers to strats any more, and the reduced risk/reward factor will probably cut the number of strat runners further. Maybe it's by design that HT is changing the game dynamic this way. If so, significantly reduced strat damage will be the norm. I'm hoping it's not: strat damage is a key aspect to the strategy aspect of the game.

Oh, prediction--either maps will be won less frequently, or hording (which a lot of people dislike) will increase, because it will take several people to accomplish what one or two could do before.

[BowHTR]

Oh, prediction--either maps will be won less frequently, or hording (which a lot of people dislike) will increase, because it will take several people to accomplish what one or two could do before.

Isn't it crazy how so many people whine when people start using teamwork to get things accomplished?

[molybdenum]

The strategic aspect actually got somewhat improved by it....

Obviously we strongly disagree as to the strategic aspect, not sure how I can make my case clearer, so I'll drop that part of the conversation.

[/quote]
The claim a single bomber pilot has not much left to do or only has little impact now is vastly exaggerated.
[/quote]
Neither "not much left to do" or "little impact" are what I said. If you have to misstate what I said in order to try to make a point, your point probably can't stand on its own.

[/quote]
You just might upgrade your tactic and adjust your plane choice.
[/quote]

A key aspect of the game to me has always been time management. "How long will this take, how much will it help my team, what is the likelihood of me achieving my objective." All three of those metrics have been hurt in Crater, and certainly the last two will be hurt on any map. Adjusting my plane choice will not aid in that unless I fly B29s (which I dislike) and then bail once I drop (which, with 60k+ bomber perks, I can certainly afford, but isn't cool to anyone who ups for me).

[/quote]
And if you really insist on killing the city, do the things that really had been one of the great things back in the day: Do a proper bombing mission.
[/quote]

I don't like them.

[BowHTR]

I don't like them.

As I stated earlier, AH3 is a new game. It is not AH2. In order to be successful, you will have to adapt and overcome.

[Lusche]

more data

I took a screenshot of the CraterMa map in AHII and AHIII. Then I measured the approximate distances between the key strategic targets in default country 1 & 2 and the respective closest airfield in country 3 (SW country). I also calculated the approximate difference in flying time to those targets between AHII and AHIII for a B-17 at 20k (one way).



So for anyone taking off in (map) country 1, the maximum total flight time increase is between 12 and 16 minutes, but for most targets it's negligible.
And the only target a single pilot has trouble hurting massively without flying a B-29 is the City. (Though a Lancaster should still be able to inflict a lot of damage with 14x1k, will test that later.)
All other targets can be hurt to very noticeable levels even by medium bombers.

[molybdenum]

As I stated earlier, AH3 is a new game. It is not AH2. In order to be successful, you will have to adapt and overcome.

If success comes at the price of not enjoying the game any more, why pay to play?

[Slate]

  I was gving around the ammo Strat and also the City. Ammo bunkers were scattered amongst trees on side roads off the main road just like you would expect them to be. The city was not just a blob of buildings.

  I like a challenging game.   

[BowHTR]

If success comes at the price of not enjoying the game any more, why pay to play?

Aces High has always been a game that you had to work to become successful no matter which role you try to fill. Whether its fighters, bombers, or GVs, you will have to learn to over come the obstacles to be successful. You learned how to be a successful bomber in AH2 because it took time to learn. AH2 is now gone, so now you can carry over what you learned from 2 and apply that knowledge to 3 to try and be successful again. Once you learn how to be successful again, then it will be fun.

I'm having problems getting hits on my targets when in fighters. Does that mean its a problem with the game? No, its my lack of trial and error to become successful again in a fighter role.

No ones starts out a new game being great, regardless of how much experience you have in the past. You cant expect gameplay or the game to change to better suit your needs. Adapt and overcome.

[molybdenum]

I'm having problems getting hits on my targets when in fighters. Does that mean its a problem with the game? No, its my lack of trial and error to become successful again in a fighter role.

That understates the issue.
A fairer (but also imperfect) analogy is to ask fighter pilots to kill nmy planes with .303s when they have always had .50cal on their wings. Except that killing, say, 5 nmy fighters with .303s on a single sortie is at least possible (you have sufficent ammo to do it), whereas dropping a factory from 100% to 40% with a set of medium bombers is impossible with the ords that a single set carries.

AH3, in comparison it ah2, requires...

1) A lot more bombs to take strats down than before.
2) To luck out and not have cloud obscuring target when you took an hour our of your life (most times) to get there.
3) To have it patently obvious that you ARE a bomber as you traverse an active nmy dar ring en route to target.
4) To have the targets come into bombsite view more quickly than before, thus allowing you less time to line up properly.
5) No wind layers to allow you quicker access to/egress from target.
6) Hard to tell even from 14k if your target is up or down from bombsite.
7) 30min resup for strat objects vs 4min in ah2!! I mean seriously, why hit strats at all if 1 guy can bring them full up before you even land?

Those are the lowlights, but I have even more complaints. Unless I can get into Gvs (unlikely) I will be cancelling my subscription to AH if this is the new normal. What I like to do in the game is simply insufficiently productive now.