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Author Topic: Prop Gripe  (Read 744 times)

Offline Hangtime

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Prop Gripe
« on: May 21, 2000, 02:59:00 AM »
Hang shuffles slowly into the O club. He seems to be moving somewhat slower than usual towards the bar. With each step comes a rumbling clatter. Behind him, seemingly by magic, tables; patrons and chairs are dislodged. The further he comes into the darkened barroom; the more pronounced the mayhem in his wake.

He reaches the bar... and the commotion seems to stop. As people pick themseves up and return the chairs and tables to their upright postions he orders a bud; takes a long pull on the tallneck and with a noticeable sigh of relief returns the empty to the bartop.

"What in hell is all the commotion about; Hang??" asks the barkeep; replacing the empty with another. Hang gratefully accepts the fresh bottle, takes another marathon pull; returns the empty to the bartop.

"Well; I stopped by the BPO's office. I griped about the usual stuff, got the usual answers. Nothin new; nothin changed. Unhappy with the status quo; I decided to up the ante and reopened the prop drag issue."

"Yah??.." sez, the barkeep; dropping a third bud within easy reach. "...and what did he say???" Hang again raises the the tallneck; again quaffs the bottle in one long pull. "Well, he said nothin at first, and then when I hollered about not gettin near enuff practice with prop drag enabled; he got a mite more annoyed than usual and then decided to help me out with it. Said I'd get a special demo immediatly to get a feel for the speed reduction and energy losses associated with prop drag. He hooked me right up. Impressive."

"How so?" asks the barkeep. Hang muses; motions for another tall neck "Well, the 5 minute walk from the BPO's office to here took twenty; and it's gonna take at least a 6 pack to restore the energy losses."

And with that; Hang turns around; bends over and picks up a Hamilton Standard prop; shackled to 15' of chain terminating at Hangs left ankle and drops it all onto the bartop. *WHUMP*

"..and ain't THAT a drag. Gimmie another."

[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 05-21-2000).]
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Offline Voss

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Prop Gripe
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2000, 03:55:00 AM »
I know you guys have been working on this thing non-stop and need a break, but...

Some thoughts...

You know, maybe when we get there, the F4 will have a more realistic tourque (nah!) and these otherwise dweebs would get scared away from it  

I think that one F4 should be able to take 1-2 tanks (my opinion here), but not the 6-10 (easy) that it can take now. Give the ground guys some time to work 'em down and get some hits on 'em too.  

The C-47 is way too easy to fly. It feels like a J-3 Cub more then the bus it was.

The 109 cockpit has way too much visibility.

Could we drop every part of the icon except the country id (bishop,rook,knight)? Range and type being determined in situ? SEA?

Fix the MA so that A1 ain't no more.   A big lake in the middle would be cool  

A36 Apache  

 
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Offline Citabria

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Prop Gripe
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2000, 05:47:00 AM »
Great story Hang  

Voss, I've heard many stories about F4u's having the problem of flipping on to their backs if full power was applied.

this is due to Newton's Third Law of Motion which states that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction.
An airplanes propeller rotates in a clockwise direction(US). This produces a force that tends to roll the entire airplane counterclockwise about its longitudinal axis.
Torque reaction is stronger when power is significantly advanced while the airplane is flying at very slow speed.

I've never been able to duplicate the entire plane being torque rolled from a standstill in AH though.

btw:

torque is made up of 4 elements:
1. torque reaction from the engines propeller
2. corkscrewing effect of the slipstream
3.Gyroscopic action of the propeller
4.Asymetrical loading of the propeller (P-factor)

however gyroscopic precesion isn't modelled in AH, but that should only cause a problem when the tail is raised after you start rolling.

ok back on topic...
prop drag and the ability to feather individual engines after it is implemented will be a great addition to the AH FM and will affect tactics nicely

[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-21-2000).]
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funked

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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2000, 06:52:00 AM »
BTW Cit, #3 includes the inertia of the prop plus all the rotating goodies in the engine, gearbox, accesory drives, etc.
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Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2000, 09:38:00 AM »
I don't fly the F4U that much, but I seem to remember that if your on final at stall speed and you punch the engine up to WEP, that it will roll over on you if your not careful.

I know the Pony has that tendency.

Oh yah.... Bring on the Prop Drag  

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-21-2000).]
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funked

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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2000, 09:47:00 AM »
I concur with Vermillion.  There are several planes that will flip you right on your head if you are clumsy with the throttle on approach.
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Offline CavemanJ

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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2000, 10:31:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Vermillion:
I don't fly the F4U that much, but I seem to remember that if your on final at stall speed and you punch the engine up to WEP, that it will roll over on you if your not careful.

The only 'careful' that would prevent the Hawg Flop when in landing trim is very slow advancing of the throttle.  Firewall it from a low power setting at low speed and you're inverted before you can blink.

There are very good reasons why, among it's many nicknames, Ensign Eliminator was one of the first ones it earned

 
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Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2000, 10:49:00 AM »
Consider also the effects prop drag and torque should have on FLIGHT.. in the vertical, near the stall, hanging on the prop.. in the descents when the throttle is snapped closed.. speed control; roll control. Gents, drag, gyroscopic precession and torque is a weapon!!

Hang
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The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2000, 12:31:00 PM »
The ability to use the idle propellor and its associated drag to slow the planes in dives is the single most glaring absence in these FMs i m o.

Add the correct engine torque values by all means.

I want AH FMs to be superior in all aspects!

Yeager

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Offline Fishu

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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2000, 01:03:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Voss:

The 109 cockpit has way too much visibility.

How about F4u's then, I have no trouble with 6 view after I adjust views a bit... or spitfire... or C.205.. or.. so on.

IMO, 109 has worst visibility of all AH planes, thats for sure  
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Offline BigJim

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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2000, 05:37:00 PM »
Heheheh Voss I don't know about the f4u but I do know about the gooney I logged alot of hours in one while in the Air Force and believe me they fly themselves they were a dream to fly so the model here is not far off.

BigJim
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Offline RAM

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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2000, 05:51:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Hangtime:
"And with that; Hang turns around; bends over and picks up a Hamilton Standard prop; shackled to 15' of chain terminating at Hangs left ankle and drops it all onto the bartop. *WHUMP*

"..and ain't THAT a drag. Gimmie another."


LOL! ROFLMAO!!!! HANG!!! WARN ON THOSE ENDS!!! my poor monitor is covered by coke!!! LOL!

you are incredible!!! ROFL!!
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Offline Voss

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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2000, 06:15:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by BigJim:
Heheheh Voss I don't know about the f4u but I do know about the gooney I logged alot of hours in one while in the Air Force and believe me they fly themselves they were a dream to fly so the model here is not far off.

BigJim

It might be easy in the real world, but this thing flies itself! I think HTC made it easier then it should be in order to let dweebs have a role in field captures. I can't believe a stall turn at 1k would be surviveable in a real 47, but I do it all the time here.  

I don't want to take anyone's fun away. I just think this plane needs a few more risks  

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Offline RAM

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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2000, 06:33:00 PM »
Quote

I don't want to take anyone's fun away. I just think this plane needs a few more risks   (Image removed from quote.)

[/b]

STILL MORE!?!?!??!          

ROFL!

My god...this thread is making me spit all my house's coke over the monitor!!!  
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funked

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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2000, 08:37:00 PM »
Voss, clean the gunk outta your ears.  A guy who flew the damn thing is telling you the model is right and you ignore him...  Geezus...
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