Author Topic: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35  (Read 9022 times)

Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2016, 11:46:51 AM »
Joint Strike Failure gone or seriously reduced.

That sounds like wishful thinking.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2016, 12:06:50 PM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: December 28, 2016, 10:43:42 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Vraciu

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2016, 11:58:22 PM »
 :headscratch:
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 12:15:18 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Squire

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2017, 12:55:05 AM »
2016 DOTE Report:

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2016/pdf/other/2016DOTEAnnualReport.pdf

 From page 55, “In August, an F-35 OT pilot from Edwards AFB, California, briefed the results of an OT community assessment of F-35 mission capability with Block 3FR5.03, based on observing developmental flight test missions and results to date. This OT assessment rated all IOT&E mission areas as “red,” including CAS, SEAD/DEAD, Offensive Counter Air (OCA) and Defensive Counter Air (DCA), AI, and Surface Warfare (SuW). Several DT Integrated Product Team representatives also briefed the status of different F-35 mission systems capabilities, most of which were rated “red,” and not meeting the entrance criteria to enter the “graduation level” mission effectiveness testing.” This is an F-35 pilot saying that the F-35 is hopeless at everything. (Note by Picard578: In missions such as CAS which require specialized skillset and aircraft design, even achieving full capability will still leave F-35 incapable of adequately performing the mission).

    On page 56 the Block Buy is discussed. What is strange is the language which talks in terms of percentages of the Economic Order Quantity instead of stating the actual numbers of aircraft. The Block Buy is an attempt to forestall abandonment of the program by locking the USAF and foreign buyers into taking 452 aircraft before the program is abandoned. Lockheed Martin is aware that the foreign partners are only contracted for 30 aircraft. The lure is supposed savings by buying in bulk. Now what is not mentioned in the 2016 DOT&E report is the number of hours to build an F-35 of 70,000. This had flatlined in the 2015 report and thus no further decreases in the build cost could be expected. The 2016 DOT&E report also did not mention the rework rate which is the percentage of build hours spent fixing components that had been damaged during installation. The F-35 is packed tighter than a head of cabbage. The rework rate had also flatlined at 14% so no further improvement could be expected. Therefore the build cost will remain at about $130 million and not fall to the $80 million promised for the Block Buy. (Note by Picard578: $130 is most likely price for F-35A only, other versions would be more expensive).

    From page 60, “Limitations to the carriage and employment envelope of the AIM-120 missile above 550 knots may be required due to excessive vibrations on the missiles and bombs in the weapons bay. Analyses of flight test data and ground vibration test data are ongoing (this applies to all variants).” With only two air-to-air missiles, the F-35 is effectively unarmed. Now it seems that, ten years after the first production aircraft came off the line, that the shaping of the bomb bay means that there is excessive vibration if the aircraft comes close to a high subsonic speed where it would normally be operating. (Note by Picard578: This also means that the F-35 cannot use supersonic speed and altitude increase that comes with it when launching missiles. As a result, missile launched from F-35 will have significantly less energy, and thus range, than a missile of the same type launched from other fighter).

    From page 61, “All F-35 variants display objectionable or unacceptable flying qualities at transonic speeds, where aerodynamicforces on the aircraft are rapidly changing. Particularly, under elevated “g” conditions, when wing loading causes the effects to be more pronounced, pilots have reported the flying qualities as “unacceptable.” So as well as not being able to carry bombs and missiles at high subsonic speeds, the F-35 doesn’t handle the transonic part well either.

    From page 69, “Many pilots assess and report that the Electro-Optical Targeting System (EOTS) on the F-35 is inferior to those currently on legacy systems, in terms of providing the pilot with an ability to discern target features and identify targets at tactically useful ranges, along with maintaining target identification and laser designation throughout the attack. Environmental effects, such as high humidity, often forced pilots to fly closer to the target than desired in order to discern target features and then engage for weapon employment, much closer than needed with legacy systems, potentially alerting the enemy, exposing the F-35 to threats around the target area or requiring delays to regain adequate spacing to set up an attack.” The F-35 was designed primarily as a ground attack aircraft and is not as good at doing that as the aircraft it would replace. (Note by Picard578: EOTS is a midwave IR system designed specifically for ground attack. Fact that legacy systems outperform it in its designed mission so comprehensively means that situation in air combat will be far worse).

    Also from page 69, “Compared to a legacy fighter with multiple weapons on racks, and multiple weapons types per aircraft, the limited load of two bombs means that only a limited number and type of targets can be effectively attacked.” Confirmation that the F-35 is not cost-effective.
(Note by Picard578: This can be worked around by carrying external weapons, but as Block 3F testing revealed, even this has resulted in F-35 being “red” in capability).

    From page 72, “If used in combat, F-35 aircraft will need support to locate and avoid modern threat ground radars, acquire targets, and engage formations of enemy fighter aircraft, due to unresolved performance deficiencies and limited weapons carriage available (i.e., two bombs and two air-to-air missiles).” Finding ground radars was the one thing that the F-35 was supposed to be good at, but now it needs help to do that? (Note by Picard578: This means that the F-35 will be limited by “legacy” fighter support, preventing it from attacking targets deep in defended territory.)

    From page 83, “Aircraft fleet-wide availability averaged 52 percent for 12 months ending October 2016, compared to the modest goal of 60 percent. It is important to note that the expected combat sortie rates will require significantly greater availability than 60 percent; therefore, if the F-35 is to replace legacy aircraft for combat taskings, availability will likely need to improve to near 80 percent.” (Note by Picard578: These availability rates are in line with availability rates of other stealth aircraft, F-22 in particular. It is therefore unrealistic to expect F-35 availability rates to go above 60 percent).

    Also from page 83, “reliability metrics related to critical failures have decreased over the past year. This decrease in reliability correlates with the simultaneously observed decline in the Fully Mission Capable (FMC) rate for all variants, which measures the percentage of aircraft not in depot status that are able to fly all defined F-35 missions. The fleet-wide FMC rate peaked in December 2014 at 62 percent and has fallen steadily since then to 21 percent in October 2016.” So reliability has gone backwards and only one in five F-35s at a time might be able to fly a combat mission.

    Lockheed has to be incentivised to perform. From page 84, “the program has implemented a Performance Based Logistics (PBL) construct with Lockheed Martin that ties contract incentive awards to a slightly different set of tailored fleet performance targets.” (Note by Picard578: All contractors have to be incentivised to perform, this is not only the case with Lockheed).

    From page 87, “For the 12-month period ending in October 2016, the monthly cannibalization rate averaged 9.8 cannibalization actions for every 100 sorties against a program goal of no more than 8 actions for every 100 sorties.” This is absolutely bizarre for an aircraft in development, particularly for an aircraft which is so difficult to work in.

    From the table on page 89, reliability is only at 45% of the required 20 hours between failures and won’t improve enough to meet the contract specification.
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Offline Krusty

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2017, 03:31:07 PM »
Not to be a downer, or a fanboi, or anything... but... The 2016 DOTE statements by Michael Gilmore? He's been an obstructionist for the F-35 program (either directly or indirectly) and has prevented workarounds to reduce the cost and reduce time spent on several major occasions. He has a bit of a biased agenda IMO. He's imposed lame-duck requirements and side-by-side testing with the A-10 to prove which is better (a delay tactic to waste more time) to further delay and hinder the entire project. Flight tests are up, weapons tests are slightly behind schedule, there are some teething problems with the heat in the bays, etc, but the wing brackets have been already fixed and introduced to the production lines and the faulty insulation in the bays is known and being worked on.

The report is dated 2016 but as I read through the laundry list of problems, most of the comments are citing events on the FIRST and most heavily-stressed airframes in the fleet, and citing incidents from 2010, 2013, 2014, and so forth. You realize it's 2017. I do. Gilmore doesn't. The program today isn't even comparable to the program in 2010. Citing problems from the first airframe that have already been fixed isn't an objective summary.


The other more objective reports state that the latest batch have dropped the price an additional 5.5% per airframe, and as more and more pilots are getting exposure to the airframes in real situations, they love and love the plane above and beyond any 4th gen in the skies. I don't mean to use such blanket statements, but it's an almost universal pattern I'm seeing on every article, recently. None of the complaints in that DOTE report show up in any other articles or interviews.


Another article: Pilots' moments when they realized the F-35 was something extraordinary:

http://www.sldinfo.com/the-moment-pilots-first-realized-the-f-35-was-something-extraordinary/

A couple of excerpts:

Quote
The Marines are writing the CAS Manual for the F-35.  How are you finding the F-35 in that role compared to what you have now?

Price:  In the CAS role it is performing well.  Being a new aircraft there are some capabilities we’d like to continue working on, but the basic execution of CAS is “On Time, On Target.” 

The jet is more than capable to execute that. 

The unique capability it brings is executing CAS in the presence of a wide range of threats (something I could not do with previous platform).

Can you give me an example?

Traditionally (Gen 4) if we are executing CAS and a medium range surface to air missile (SAM) pops up on the battlefield, we are done with CAS.

We immediately transition into a SEAD, destruction of enemy air defense (DEAD), or reactive SEAD mindset. With the F-35, we may continue to execute CAS because of freedom of maneuver (stealth) and the SA I have about the threat, its location and its nature.

I may advise the forward air controller (FAC) that a threat has appeared, but it won’t impact mission execution.  If the situation gets more threatening, I have the organic capability to go deal with the threat and then roll right back into CAS.  Previously I would have to call in another platform, potentially call in our Prowlers or call in other combined arms to take care of the threat.


and


Quote
BC:  I was conducting a strike mission and Red Air was coming at me.  In a 4th Gen fighter you must do a whole lot of interpretation.  You see things in azimuth, and you see things in elevation.  In the F-35 you just see the Gods eye view of the whole world.  It’s very much like you are watching the briefing in real time.

I am coming in to perform the simulated weapons release, and Red Air is coming the other direction.

I have enough situational awareness to assess whether Red Air is going to be a factor to me by the time I release the weapon.  I can make the decision, I’m going to go to the target, I’m going to release this weapon. 

At the same time I pre-target the threat, and as soon as I release the A2G weapon, I can flip a switch with my thumb and shoot the Red Air. 

This is difficult to do in a 4th Gen fighter, because there is so much manipulation of systems in the cockpit.

All while paying attention to the basic mechanics of flying the airplane and interpreting threat warnings that are often very vague, or only directional.

In the F-35 I know where the threats are, what they are and I can thread the needle.  I can tell that the adversary is out in front of me and I can make a very, very smart decision about whether to continue or get out of there.  All that, and I can very easily switch between mission sets.

Mo: I was leading a four ship of F-35s on a strike against 4th Gen adversaries, F-16s and F/A-18s. 

We fought our way in, we mapped the target, found the target, dropped JDAMs on the target and turned around and fought our way out. 

All the targets got hit, nobody got detected, and all the adversaries died.  I thought, yes, this works, very, very, very well.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2017, 04:41:50 PM »
https://i0.wp.com/www.defensemedianetwork.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/LTV-V-1600-concept-art.jpg?resize=720%2C499

Used to watch the Top Gun agressor USN F-16Ns fly out of Miramar on their way out to over the ocean from my dad's office in La Jolla.  It was cool seeing A4's and the F-16Ns flying in formation with their red little stars on the tails.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2017, 08:21:49 PM »
Used to watch the Top Gun agressor USN F-16Ns fly out of Miramar on their way out to over the ocean from my dad's office in La Jolla.  It was cool seeing A4's and the F-16Ns flying in formation with their red little stars on the tails.

Pretty cool.

I read an article by a TOP GUN Instructor about the N.   It was quite the hot rod.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2017, 03:43:20 PM »
Pretty cool.

I JUST RECENTLY read an article by a TOP GUN Instructor about the N.   It was quite the hot rod.

Fixed it.

A little coincidence was what I meant to point out.
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Offline Squire

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2017, 10:07:03 PM »
Well it's an official report not somebody's internet website. As far as the motivations of the authors out there? cripes man...I can't possibly know. Anyways it's posted for info.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2017, 12:17:12 AM »
Well it's an official report not somebody's internet website. As far as the motivations of the authors out there? cripes man...I can't possibly know. Anyways it's posted for info.

The DOTE's job is to tell it like it is.

God bless the guy for having the stones to do so.
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2017, 03:15:21 PM »
How stealthy could you possibly make a F15 version? Possibly the most unstealthy, along with the SU's, design ever made. Yeah you can coat it, rebend some edges, maybe reduce the frontal RCS, carriage the weapons, and yeah you can re sensor the design. But you still have those two huge tails and two big engines and the detection threat is just getting stronger with every passing year. It was never an option for USAF, who wanted nothing to do with it, but was pointed at the export market instead.

When a country invests in a fighter/bomber they not only buy the plane but spend a ton on the infrastructure to fly, fight, and maintain it. Everything from pilot training to nuts and bolts, weapons, simulators, all kinds of stuff.

Im a little surprised this silent Eagle thing didnt get off the ground. Yes it was very expensive but the countries on the possible list for it all have cash or, like Israel, get stuff free from us, or steal it. The rest of the "possibles" Saudi , Singapore, Japan, South Korea, all have a lot invested in F15 and can afford a "sorta stealth" one at 100 m a pop. Last I heard only Israel was still interested.


A model of the F-15 was built, tested then dumped called the F-15SE (Silent Eagle.) It basically did what artik suggested, which was take the basic F-15 frame, strip it down to the bones and rebuild it with ultra modern avionics, etc and then handle some surfaces with radar absorbent design/material. It seemed to do much of what artik suggested, at a much smaller cost than the F-22. It was dumped. From a political point of view the SE variant has less umph than the F-22.

If the F-35 is all avionics there is no reason those could not be built into another bird. The F-35 is a platform, what they are describing is the data bus, link and system.

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Offline Squire

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2017, 07:30:46 PM »
See Rule #14
« Last Edit: February 04, 2017, 07:26:22 AM by Skuzzy »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2017, 03:51:42 PM »
How stealthy could you possibly make a F15 version? Possibly the most unstealthy, along with the SU's, design ever made. Yeah you can coat it, rebend some edges, maybe reduce the frontal RCS, carriage the weapons, and yeah you can re sensor the design. But you still have those two huge tails and two big engines and the detection threat is just getting stronger with every passing year. It was never an option for USAF, who wanted nothing to do with it, but was pointed at the export market instead.

When a country invests in a fighter/bomber they not only buy the plane but spend a ton on the infrastructure to fly, fight, and maintain it. Everything from pilot training to nuts and bolts, weapons, simulators, all kinds of stuff.

Im a little surprised this silent Eagle thing didnt get off the ground. Yes it was very expensive but the countries on the possible list for it all have cash or, like Israel, get stuff free from us, or steal it. The rest of the "possibles" Saudi , Singapore, Japan, South Korea, all have a lot invested in F15 and can afford a "sorta stealth" one at 100 m a pop. Last I heard only Israel was still interested.

Silent Eagle is a viable option as a replacement for our Eagle fleet which is falling apart.   

Tail fins are what they are.  Cant them.  Coat them. Don't use the airplane for first wave attacks on access denial targets except as a standoff platform.  Then use it to control the airspace after the F-22 defeats the first team. 

You need numbers.   Just like in World War Two when the P-40 was used EVERYWHERE.  Yeah, it was not the best but was still good enough.

The F-15 can do things the A-35 NEVER EVER will be able to.   

Our Eagles are falling apart.   A low number annual procurement to upgrade the fleet is a smart move. 
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Offline Krusty

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Re: USMC & USAF Pilots on the capabilities of the F-35
« Reply #29 on: February 03, 2017, 11:32:18 AM »
P-40 was obsolete and continued production of it was actually brought up in trials post-war to see if corruption and bribery were the reason it was so prolific. That's not a good example to use for "numbers are everything" -- because they aren't.


P.S. The F-15 would cost more than the F-35 at a fraction of the capability. assuming the fuselage didn't crumple between the cockpit and the intakes like several have already begun to do.