bomber icon on some bombers is just wrong!

[bozon]

As it is, everyting that comes out of the bomber hangar gets the big juicy bomber dar icon. Needless to say that this attracks a lot of attention from the defenders.

However, applying this cross the board for all BH planes feels very wrong in several cases:
1. Single engine bombers - SBD, B5N, TBM... these are not bigger than fighters and cannot take formation. This is really sad that a poor brave player in an SBD attracts defenders like flies to **** because they see the big dar icon.

2. Small bombers like A20 and Mosquito XVI. The A20 is an attack plane more than a bomber. It is true that its brother the Boston is a classic small/medium bomber, but the A20 has no drones nor a bomb sight. The B mossie has the latter, but it is the same airframe as the Mossie VI that gets a fighter icon. How can the radar tell the difference between a single Moss VI and XVI?

I use the Moss XVI as a tactical bomber without drones and rely heavily on masquerading as a fighter mossie to dodge enemy fighters. The dar icon magically attracts defenders and completely reveal my hoax, limiting me to operate only where dar has been destroyed.

Wish:
Please make the formation tick box the parameter that sets a big dar icon - call it formation icon instead of a bomber icon. If a B17 pilot wants to take a single bomber in order to enjoy some anonymity, then all the best to him.

It is only logical!

[100Coogn]

The map icons are way to gamey as it is now.
You do remember when there were only dots and red flashing bases?  Now we can tell if it's a fighter or Bomber and
the heading they are taking.
I'm not even going to get into the different color flashing bases.   

Coogan

[EagleDNY]

Have to agree it is just too gamey this way.  Radars of the era were not this precise and ours should not be either.  Small target dot or large target dot is really all we need.   The one big thing missing from this radar setup is some indication of altitude on the inbound targets - you have a radar contact but you don't know if it is at 1,000 ft, or 31,000 ft?   Even if you just had some indication of altitude band - up to 10K, 10K-20K, and over 20K - that would make radar better. 

[Lusche]

1. Single engine bombers - SBD, B5N, TBM... these are not bigger than fighters and cannot take formation. This is really sad that a poor brave player in an SBD attracts defenders like flies to **** because they see the big dar icon.

2. Small bombers like A20 and Mosquito XVI. The A20 is an attack plane more than a bomber. It is true that its brother the Boston is a classic small/medium bomber, but the A20 has no drones nor a bomb sight. The B mossie has the latter, but it is the same airframe as the Mossie VI that gets a fighter icon. How can the radar tell the difference between a single Moss VI and XVI?
[...]

http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,381837.msg5083818.html#msg5083818 

Even if you just had some indication of altitude band - up to 10K, 10K-20K, and over 20K - that would make radar better.

That would make bomber interception so much easier for the fighter - what do you think would be the bomber pilots answer to this?

[save]

Planes of wood should only show an flying engine icon, or in the Mossie's case, 2   

[Chalenge]

Have to agree it is just too gamey this way.  Radars of the era were not this precise and ours should not be either.  Small target dot or large target dot is really all we need.   The one big thing missing from this radar setup is some indication of altitude on the inbound targets - you have a radar contact but you don't know if it is at 1,000 ft, or 31,000 ft?   Even if you just had some indication of altitude band - up to 10K, 10K-20K, and over 20K - that would make radar better.

Radar from WWII did not have altitude data. Estimates were provided only by observation.

[Oldman731]

Radar from WWII did not have altitude data. Estimates were provided only by observation.

"C[hain]H[ome] output was read with an oscilloscope. When a pulse was sent from the broadcast towers, a visible line travelled horizontally across the screen very rapidly. The output from the receiver was amplified and fed into the vertical axis of the scope, so a return from an aircraft would deflect the beam upward. This formed a spike on the display, and the distance from the left side – measured with a small scale on the bottom of the screen – would give target range. By rotating the receiver goniometer connected to the antennas, the operator could estimate the direction to the target (this was the reason for the cross shaped antennas), while the height of the vertical displacement indicated formation size. By comparing the strengths returned from the various antennas up the tower, altitude could be gauged with some accuracy."


Granted that it's Wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_in_World_War_II), it's consistent with other materials I've read over the years. 

And that's 1940 radar.

- oldman

[popeye]

How can the radar tell the difference between a single Moss VI and XVI?
(Image removed from quote.)

This is the same radar that can't see an aircraft carrier 3 miles away, but can see a Spitfire on its deck, so there are some technical details that are hard to explain.   

[bozon]

This is the same radar that can't see an aircraft carrier 3 miles away, but can see a Spitfire on its deck, so there are some technical details that are hard to explain.   

Yes, of course that was just a cinical remark on my side.

The radar serves a gameplay purpose and unlike how the planes perform in game, it is not supposed to simulate a historical radar.

My wish is entirely about gameplay. Attack planes and light bombers that do not utilize the drones formation are penalized heavily  by the game's dar icons. I believe that the purpose of a different icon for bombers is to idetify formations of heavy bombers B17/B24/lancs etc. A single TBM is nothing like a formation of heavy bombers, not in its threat and not in defensive capabilities. An unarmed mossie can take drones, but unless it ensures a milkrun, the drones are a hindrance to its defence, not a boon! The bomber mossie can engage fighters and survive, but it relies entirely on maneuvering. As a single bomber, the XVI mossie also rely on deception - the enemy fighers cant tell till within 1000 yards if this Moss icon is a toothless (yet slippery) shark, or if it is a shark with friggin' laser beams. This allows the XVI a little maneuvering room to blow through or to evade - but only as a single bomber! drones are a dead (pun intended) giveaway and prevent combat maneuvering.

Therefore I think that the formation rather than a generic bomber  is what the icon should indicate.

[Zimme83]

Most of the time it would not be a problem to figure out if its a moss 6 or 16 by the way they fly. A 20k mossie over a non combat area is almost always a 16 while the moss 6 appears on lower altitude. But i agree, a moss 16 should have a fighter icon on the radar. (if it flies with formation it reveals itself as a 16 to anyone within sight anyway)

[bozon]

Most of the time it would not be a problem to figure out if its a moss 6 or 16 by the way they fly. A 20k mossie over a non combat area is almost always a 16 while the moss 6 appears on lower altitude. But i agree, a moss 16 should have a fighter icon on the radar. (if it flies with formation it reveals itself as a 16 to anyone within sight anyway)

If a player takes his B mossie to +20k he may as well take the drones. In the tactical role, the selling point of the B mossie is an extremely short round trip - 10 to 15 min tops. Climbing to over 12 or 14 is a waste of time. The idea is to be inconspicuous, lob the cookie before fighters close on you, and then escape towards friendlies using maneuvers and dives.

see here:
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,360316.msg4782729.html#msg4782729

[Zimme83]

I often use a single mossie on strat runs, even on city, if you hit the right spot the cookie can do some significant damage, radar and troop strats are very favorable targets for a b mossie.
I also pork fields with it, sometimes you need to kill ords at a base with a lot of enemy fighters around i prefer to do it from high alt w a mossie rather than a suicide jabo.

[popeye]

I agree that single-engine bombers -- SBD, B5N, TBM -- should probably have "fighter" icons.  They might see more action if they did.

However, if single 4-engine bombers had "fighter" icons, CVs would die even faster than they do now.

[Lusche]

However, if single 4-engine bombers had "fighter" icons, CVs would die even faster than they do now.

Until a few months ago, even formations of heavies did have a 'fighter' icon because everything was just a dot. You figured by the speed the dot is moving over the map what kind of contact it was. Worked pretty well. Oh, and true 'fighters' sink CV's, too.
Small dot - single plane, large dot - formation would probably make for some interesting tactical choices, on both sides of the equation

[pembquist]

Yup, the new radar gives too much information imho. However, I have a suspicion that it is staying as is. Very good point on the Mossie or single engine bombers. It is more fun to chase fighters with a gunless mossie if they don't know your gunless.