Author Topic: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom  (Read 16587 times)

Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #120 on: January 18, 2017, 11:48:02 PM »
They have low drag in cruise.   They have high drag in maneuver and when slow. 

You don't even make any sense.  What is "in maneuver" and "when slow", in aerodynamic terms?  I thought you had half a century in this field and would know the right words.  Do you even realize that "at high AOA", regardless of "maneuvering" or "speed", is the specific condition where a delta wing's drag really increases?

No of course you don't know such a basic aerodynamic principle, because you're also either ignorant of, or deliberately ignoring, the fact that accompanying the drag increase is a consistently high and flat lift curve that makes a delta wing planform desirable in an aircraft with a high thrust-weight ratio or a need to go FAST yet still slow down enough to land on a reasonably sized runway (concord, B-58, SR-71, etc).

This is what is so amazing about the F-18 design - the leading edge extension strakes generate vortices (and drag) at high AOA, far more so than would otherwise be generated by the rest of the wing with its relatively low leading edge sweep.  The comparatively low leading edge sweep gives higher lift at lower AOA and at lower speed which permits carrier landings, yet the AOA can be spiked to previously unheard of angles in combat to permit weapons employment advantages.  That takes advantage of a general characteristic of a delta wing planform, and that's why the delta wing is still used today in modified forms and configurations.

You keep blathering about how "my logic" would consider a 747 wing to be a modified delta... except that anyone with any education in the field of aerodynamics, or any real experience flying high performance aircraft with various wing shapes, can look at it and see that the basic shape is swept and anticipate likely performance properties and handling behaviors.  Not only that, any investigation into the handling characteristics of a 747 (or any modern airliner) would make it clear that the wing actually behaves aerodynamically like a swept wing, not a delta wing.

Anyone with the background and experience can see and understand this, just by looking at it.  Look at an F-15 wing planform and anyone with aero experience can instantly predict that the lift/drag curves and likely handling characteristics most closely resemble those of a delta wing.  Knowledge of the airfoil and leading edge droop in the F-15 wing would make it even more clear that the wing's aero characteristics are generally that of a delta wing, not a traditional swept wing.  A swept wing does not generally benefit from a permanent fixed leading edge droop while a delta wing does, and guess what - the leading edge of the F-15 has a fixed drooping leading edge airfoil shape.

While arguing this has been stupidly entertaining, there is one final point.  By your argument, there never has been and never will be a real "delta" wing on a real aircraft, because no aircraft ever produced had a true triangle shape with a tip that ended in a geometrically precise point.  They all have at least a small "clipped" wingtip due to the physical characteristics of the materials used to construct the aircraft.  For that matter, simple manufacturing variations would ensure that the trailing edge of the wing is never precisely 90 degrees from the aircraft's centerline.  There will always be a variation, hence by your definition, there will never be a true delta winged aircraft.

You can't even get the basic aero terminology right, your overly narrow definition of a "delta" wing is physically impossible to manufacture, and you are ignoring the fact that the aerodynamic properties inherent in a "delta" wing are the product of airflow over a wing planform that is roughly a right triangle but not necessarily a precisely true or simple right triangle.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #121 on: January 18, 2017, 11:50:32 PM »
Thanks for repeating so many points I've already made.   You know precisely what I mean.  Being obtuse when discussing delta wings...  Ironic.

...

I happen to be a huge Hornet fan, by the way, but ask anyone who knows anything about it and they'll tell you there's nothing worse than being out of energy in a fight with no choice but to go downhill RIGHT NOW.  It's draggy, underpowered, and mostly outclassed.   You pay a price for the LERX layout.   (Just like a delta, you get tremendous drag especially when slow or loaded up or high AOA, whatever term you care to use--you know what is meant.  That vortex lift isn't free.)  They don't call it the Super Slow Hornet for nothing.

...

Lots of airplanes have permanent droops and they're not all deltas. 

  :eek:

"In fact, the wings of some modern fighter aircraft defy classification as simple delta or swept wings since they have some of the geometric characteristics of both."   

- HISTORY.NASA.GOV

 :eek: :eek:

Whatever.    I'm not gonna be insulted by someone who doesn't bother to read what I've said. 

Have fun.  I'm out. 

Apologies to the OP for my part in the thread hijack.

Thanks Puma for the great info you shared and the classy manner with which you shared it   I will take your advice about that electric fence.  Lol  :salute

« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 02:18:56 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #122 on: January 19, 2017, 03:50:42 AM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 12:52:50 PM by Skuzzy »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #123 on: January 19, 2017, 05:48:28 AM »
The poor low-speed high-alpha characteristics of a "pure" delta...  :rofl




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Offline Skuzzy

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #124 on: January 19, 2017, 06:43:19 AM »
My aero engineering class at the USAF academy, and later on courses during fighter pilot training, all contained specific behavioral characteristics that were generally common or similar among pretty much all delta wing designs.  The term "delta" wing was applied to any wing ROUGHLY triangular in shape, although a great number of variations such as cranked arrow, ogive delta, clipped delta, etc. were accepted and considered as "delta wings" in general because their performance characteristics were so similar.

Specifically noteworthy were descriptions of how in all of the delta shape variations, the lift generation would SMOOTHLY transition from traditional "airfoil" lift/drag profiles to a profile driven by strong vortices generated from the wing root as AOA increased.  While this significantly increased drag, it also dramatically flattened the lift curve, nearly eliminating traditional stalling behavior.  While the drag increase could be partially mitigated by features such as a drooped leading edge, combining a delta wing with a traditional horizontal stabilator or canards (lifting, fixed, or free-floating) provides a huge increase in performance and maneuverability.  Still, even with a tail or canard, all "delta" style wings (modified, cranked, clipped, whatever) will feature a flat lift curve due to the vortices generated at the wing root.

This is a direct contrast to "swept" wings, which have completely different characteristics at high AOA such as a tendency to tip stall and a much more abrupt "stall" drop-off in lift as AOA is increased.

As for the utterly ignorant statement that a delta wing isn't useful because it has too much drag, take a good look at the B-58 hustler...  That's one FAST airplane created with low drag in mind, very well designed for its purpose, and proof positive that a delta wing is sometimes the best (or only) way to achieve performance requirements.  That's just as true today as it was 50 years ago.

Maybe it was just my own interpretation, but I always felt like the flight characteristics were a manifestation of the design, while the definition of the design was described by the physical attributes.  At least, that is how I always read it.

In a gross analogy, it is like claiming a DOHC engine would be defined by how much more efficient it is over a single, in-block, cam engine.  While true, it is not the actual definition of DOHC, it is the manifestation of the design.

Correct me on this eagl, as I am not an expert in this area, but I do endeavor to be accurate. Thanks.
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Online rabbidrabbit

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2017, 07:54:19 AM »
It's good to finally see a spirited exchange here remain unlocked.

Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #126 on: January 19, 2017, 08:18:18 AM »
....and thus endeth the discussion on F-4 flight characteristics.   :salute

Then again, there's a whole other discussion about the wide range of "stuff" the Rhino could carry.

Vraciu, you're welcome!  Always good to use a tool for its intended purpose.  :rofl

« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 08:36:42 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #127 on: January 19, 2017, 08:48:32 AM »
Payload capacity was the one characteristic where the F-4 truly shined brighter than all others. As a bomb truck it has few rivals.

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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #128 on: January 19, 2017, 08:59:20 AM »
Come to think of it the F-4 was the first of the jet "heavy fighters" wasn't it. The first member of an exclusive club that includes the F-14, F-15, F-22, Tornado, Mig-25/31, Su-15 and Su-27 (+variants). All other planes in that size category are bombers or perform other missions than air superiority.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #129 on: January 19, 2017, 09:18:08 AM »
Come to think of it the F-4 was the first of the jet "heavy fighters" wasn't it. The first member of an exclusive club that includes the F-14, F-15, F-22, Tornado, Mig-25/31, Su-15 and Su-27 (+variants). All other planes in that size category are bombers or perform other missions than air superiority.
Yes, heavy and beast come to mind.  Pretty much anything that could physically be strapped under the jet could be flown out and dropped on someone's head.  One of my favorites was the GBU-10 2,000 lb bomb. Delivered using the Pave Spike system carried on the F-4.  A very accurate and powerful weapon.



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Offline Gman

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #130 on: January 19, 2017, 11:56:30 AM »
Since this thread has become a general aviation/delta/other planes deal, I wonder what you both (Puma/Eagl) can say about the B58 Huslter that Eagl brought up.  Went and read more about it last night, really interesting bomber.  Fast - mach 2 at alt, but the climb rate is what caught my eye, a couple sources claimed with a light weapons load it could do nearly 50k/m from the deck on up with its 4 engines on max cook. 

I really was interested in the tail defenses, I've often wondered why they were removed from the B52 when they did get kills on Mig21s in Vietnam.  These days with all the ECM stuff going on, I often wonder if our bombers would be most vulnerable to gun kills from fighters, and wouldn't having at least some sort of gun defenses be a very good thing?  (This thread has lots of "gun" discussion so I figure this fits in too).  The gun on the B58 was radar guided, the 3rd crewman just had to designate the target and fire the rotary 20mm.  Really interesting I found, and again, wonder why the non-stealth bombers like the B52 deleted the tail defenses.

The B58 also had one of the first squeakin betties.  (edit - Squekin...seriously?!?!).  The Hustler was flying only 12 years after the B29 went in service, pretty incredible.  All sources say that its high alt/speed capability was made irrelevant by the SA2 and other defenses, but that when it switched to a low alt/high speed penetrator, it did well.  Any ideas on how fast it was on the deck Puma/Eagl?

Can anything be learned from the B58 regarding the USAF's current bomber fleet?  The B21 is coming soon, and the B2 is still being used, front page news today is 2 of the B2 fleet just dropped 100+ bombs in one sortie - must be the small diameter bomb I think, maybe the GBU38 500lb JDAM,  in order to have 50+ on board, but that's a guess.

Quote
After looking at various options including rear-firing missiles and twin 30mm cannons, the General Electric T171 (first designation of the M61 Vulcan cannon) 20mm rotary cannon was selected in early 1954. The tail gun of the B-58 boasted many firsts for an aircraft defensive gun including the first fully automatic defensive gun fire control system for a production aircraft, the first aircraft gun unit to use a 3-axis inertially-stabilized platform to increase the gun's accuracy, the first aircraft gun to use a self-contained environmental control unit for the gun and ammunition storage, first aircraft gun to use a solid state analog fire control computer for fire control and the first to use a hinged turret arrangement for maintenance work.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 12:14:10 PM by Gman »

Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #131 on: January 19, 2017, 03:51:10 PM »
Gman, while on active duty I met a Colonel who flew the Hustler.  He said it would do high Mach (upwards of Mach 2 as I recall) all day long at low altitude.  He also mentioned that if it lost an engine at high Mach, the resulting yaw would be catastrophic.  When everything was working correctly, it was a joy to fly, according to him.

The tail gun in the Buff was supposed to be pretty lethal.  While in the F-106, we would work with the local Buffarillo squadrons.  We would run intercepts on them, convert to the stern, and work on slashing gun shots while staying out of their lethal 60 degree out to 6,000ft cone of death.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 04:15:17 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #132 on: January 19, 2017, 04:03:53 PM »
Due to its honeycomb structure, the B-58 was subject to corrosion.  Moisture simply couldn't escape from some of the areas, creating many corrosion cells.  Also, it was almost strictly a nuclear bomber.  The weird aircraft/pod configuration didn't lend itself to carrying conventional weapons.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2017, 04:17:28 PM »
Glad this thread was posted up. Always interesting reading.

Thanks to you fellas contributing!!
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Offline puller

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2017, 04:52:36 PM »
I too went and read about the B58...I really thought that the ejection pods it had were really cool...wish I could post the pic of them...really neat
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