Author Topic: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom  (Read 16542 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #180 on: January 27, 2017, 01:02:14 PM »
No, he isn't.   

The airplane gets one hard (in this case 9-G) turn and it's out of energy.   

Sustained turn is "okay" not world-beating.  This is typical for a delta.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2017, 01:04:30 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #181 on: January 27, 2017, 01:20:39 PM »
Try reading his words here. I'll adjust the font size to help you out:

“Sustained turn was still good, especially at low level where you had sufficient energy to maintain speed.”
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #182 on: January 27, 2017, 09:39:51 PM »
When the difference between winning and losing is only a few percent (as it is in most things), small differences like having cropped wingtips (like the F-16) which reduce drag could be a major factor over the traditional delta wing.  Thrust to weight ratios, wingloading, and other goodies like that come in to play.  Of course like Eagl said, all the various forms of delta wings share the same basic characteristics.  But that doesn't mean there aren't small differences between different styled delta wing aircraft.

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Offline eagl

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #183 on: January 28, 2017, 01:01:04 AM »
I got first-shot opportunities on occasion flying an F-15E against an F-16 when the viper driver sailed on past riding his AOA limiter, while I was free to spike the AOA deep into the "bad" part of the lift/drag chart, giving me a shot while he was still trying to slow down enough to use his turn rate and radius advantages.

I've also flown an F-15E (the big motor variant) and accelerated during an 8G 180 deg turn at low altitude.  If you're talented enough to ride the best sustained turn AOA instead of stupidly automatically spiking the AOA past best L/D, even a pure delta design like the mirage has a hell of a sustained turn, like that pilot was writing about when comparing the mirage to the F-16.  The trick is to fight your best fight against your opponent's worst fight.  In an F-15, I could on occasion exploit the F-16's AOA limiter by using my ability to swing the nose around and decelerate inside his turn circle faster than the viper could react, and get off a first shot.  Not always, and not even most of the time because the viper can turn up its own bunghole.  But that was my best fight against his worst fight.

Assuming I was dumb enough to get within visual range of the little bastages anyhow...  A talented F-15E crew could usually keep SA on 2-4 vipers as they wormed their way to the merge, picking them off one by one with high Pk shots before they got within 10 miles.  Its hard for even a viper to defend against a well timed no-lock heater in the face as he pitches hot, and thanks to *gadgets* I could often accurately cue weapons long before they could see me.

I can easily see a mirage sustaining very high Gs at lower altitudes, as long as the pilot kept it at or below his best sustained turn AOA.  The delta wing only has a drag spike if you keep pulling the AOA up, and modern high lift devices like drooping leading edges and flaperons combined with fly-by-wire and relaxed stability are very effective at improving the lift/drag curves of even a pure delta design.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #184 on: January 28, 2017, 01:33:14 AM »
Good write-up Eagl!  :aok  I'd just like to add that there is also a biological limit to how long high-G turns can be sustained. At some point the pilot will have to ease off on the Gs or nature will do it for him.

Unless Vraciu or someone else wants to continue this digression I'd like to end with a superb video I found. These aerial shots are some of the best I've ever seen. Simply stunning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15Jd1A5OPU
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 01:42:28 AM by PR3D4TOR »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #185 on: January 28, 2017, 02:12:12 AM »
Beautiful, Pr3d4tor.  :aok

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #186 on: January 28, 2017, 04:17:49 AM »
Try reading his words here. I'll adjust the font size to help you out:

“Sustained turn was still good (NOT OUTSTANDING), especially at low level where you had sufficient energy to maintain speed.”

FIFY.


Try reading his words here...

“Yes and no. It’s easy to fly once you get the hang of it but the delta wing takes a unique approach to flying – it’s not like a conventional wing. It generates huge amounts of lift but also an enormous amount of drag – great for a ‘Bat Turn’ but you always always always ALWAYS end low on energy afterwards."


ALWAYS.

Not sometimes.  Not once in awhile.  Not "only against F-16s" or on Tuesdays or holidays, or when Predator says so.

ALWAYS.

This is exactly what Puma said.  It is exactly why eagl said he uses planforms to determine how to fight other airplanes, and that he knows a delta will not have the same sustained energy he does.



And here...


“As mentioned, the delta wing could catch you out, it would give you 9G+ performance (NOT SUSTAINED 9-G performance) but at a penalty...


That penalty is drag and a significant loss of energy that will turn you into a 2- or 3-G guns target.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 04:21:48 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #187 on: January 28, 2017, 09:27:00 AM »
Good write-up Eagl!  :aok  I'd just like to add that there is also a biological limit to how long high-G turns can be sustained. At some point the pilot will have to ease off on the Gs or nature will do it for him.

Unless Vraciu or someone else wants to continue this digression I'd like to end with a superb video I found. These aerial shots are some of the best I've ever seen. Simply stunning!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m15Jd1A5OPU

Excellent point PR3D4TOR.  Great video!  Thanks!

It appears this dead horse has been beaten to a pulp.

As Eagl said, his best fight against the other guy's worst fight.  It is usually the first one to make a mistake that loses the fight, no matter how cosmic a ride he's flying. 

"Hamburger is still hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in".  :salute
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 09:33:23 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #188 on: January 28, 2017, 11:02:11 AM »
Excellent point PR3D4TOR.  Great video!  Thanks!

It appears this dead horse has been beaten to a pulp.

As Eagl said, his best fight against the other guy's worst fight.  It is usually the first one to make a mistake that loses the fight, no matter how cosmic a ride he's flying. 

"Hamburger is still hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in".  :salute

If there's anything I've learned in AH it's that my first ground instructor's hyperbole was not too far from the truth.   "Give me a Cessna 152 and a pistol and I can whip anyone if I fly my airplane right." He was a retired Marine with 250+ missions in Vietnam. 

He had a funny story about doing an ADIZ intercept on a wayward 172 near Florida and their attempt to get the N-number off the tail.   Something about how the guy would turn at just the right moment to keep the backseater from getting a good look.   Vroom they would stagger by with everything hanging out trying to reset.    It was hilarious. 

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #189 on: January 28, 2017, 11:34:39 AM »
It's great reading these kinds of posts from resident experts (like eagl and puma44) that know what they are talking about and very funny reading posts from people that think they are.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #190 on: January 28, 2017, 12:39:23 PM »
It's great reading these kinds of posts from resident experts (like eagl and puma44) that know what they are talking about and very funny reading posts from people that think they are.


What's your expertise in flying, of any kind?   (Since people like to throw that question around.)

Funny enough they're both saying things I've said repeatedly.   But I guess I don't know anything. 


Insert eyeroll. 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2017, 01:39:03 PM by Vraciu »
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #191 on: January 28, 2017, 12:50:00 PM »
I would have to agree with Ack-Ack. Im not saying that you dont know anything, im sure you know a lot of stuff, but  your arguments are basically "Deltas bleed a lot of E when they turn so no Delta wing aircraft can turn very well" and this have been disproved but you are still fighting your fight, without backing it up with anything.

That makes it a bit hard to take your opinions seriously.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #192 on: January 28, 2017, 01:36:45 PM »
I would have to agree with Ack-Ack. Im not saying that you dont know anything, im sure you know a lot of stuff, but  your arguments are basically "Deltas bleed a lot of E when they turn so no Delta wing aircraft can turn very well" and this have been disproved but you are still fighting your fight, without backing it up with anything.

That makes it a bit hard to take your opinions seriously.

I just quoted a Mirage 2000 pilot who said EXACTLY what I stated.

You have an F-106 driver IN THIS THREAD saying the same thing about the Six.

You have an F-15 driver in this thread noting the deficiencies in sustained turn of a delta like the Mirage (and how this affects his approach to the fight).

I have two F-16 FW instructors, one of whom I flew with for two years, both saying the Mirage 2000 is not that great, particularly against the Viper.

The delta wing planform has significant and well-known disadvantages as stated by the pilots who actually flew the darned things.

So, yeah, don't take what I say seriously.    :rolleyes:

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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #193 on: January 28, 2017, 01:54:06 PM »
Dont worry, I dont.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Flight characteristics of the F-4 Phantom
« Reply #194 on: January 28, 2017, 02:39:27 PM »
See Rule #4
« Last Edit: January 29, 2017, 07:19:33 AM by Skuzzy »
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