LW Ammo Counters

[zinhwk]

New to AH but not new to WWII sims so perhaps this is rehashing old material. I am/was a 109 nut but I just can't get myself to enjoy the AH version with the silly trim indicators in my face. Aside from 109s not having in flight trim except for the H stab, I would rather have the "proper" ammo counters there and maybe move the trim indicators to a lower panel like on the ordinance panel between the legs on Jabo fitted 109s.

There are instruments and "feel" on controller input to figure out trim, and then the easy mode combat trim to zero things in a hurry so I'm not getting the necessity of the trim indicator location.

Just a thought.

[The Fugitive]

There are some concessions made because it IS a game. WWII planes didn't have an ammo counter. They have them in the game to make it easier for players to KNOW when they are running out and are not surprised by a tracer color change.

The same goes for trim. Auto trim wasn't something WWII planes had. It is added in the game to make it easier for many player to fly. In stead of "working" to keep a plane in the air, the game handles the little things to let player enjoy the game.

Welcome to Aces High. It is the best at being a cross between SIM, and GAME.

[zinhwk]

There are some concessions made because it IS a game. WWII planes didn't have an ammo counter. They have them in the game to make it easier for players to KNOW when they are running out and are not surprised by a tracer color change.

Uhhh, yes they did. 10 seconds of reading  reveals this.



Not everything was designed like the Americans. I get the concessions, but different choices can be made without damaging playability and simming.

[Karnak]

Uhhh, yes they did. 10 seconds of reading  reveals this.

(Image removed from quote.)

Not everything was designed like the Americans. I get the concessions, but different choices can be made without damaging playability and simming.

Only some aircraft, mainly German, had this feature.  For game purposes there are ammo counters.  That said, after a short time with playing favorites you'll pretty much ignore the counter as you'll have a feel for the ammo left.

[zinhwk]

Hence the title " LW Ammo Counters"

Anyway, just bringing it up as the same argument can be said for trimming. You trim by "feel" thus having the indicators in your face as a primary instrument on the 109/190/110/410 rather than the actual ammo counters is a head scratcher for me. Years of getting used to one sight picture and then have that crammed in mess is jarring. Maybe one day I'll just ignore it.

I can tell people often talk to a brick wall here so that's all I gots to say bout dat.

[The Fugitive]

Again, this is a GAME, not a sim. ALL ammo counters look the same in ALL planes to make it easy for a player to find and understand what they are looking at.

The same goes for the trim indicators, for the same reasons. This is a game not a sim.

They also do NOT have cowl flaps and heaters and the multitude of other things that a sim would have. This game is designed as a game.

As for talking to a wall, in this case, yes, because the designer of the game designed it this way on purpose. He isn't going to make changes just because some one wants more of a sim feel, he built a game, not a sim. However when it comes to how the planes and GV react in the world he created he tries to keep it as true to the real equipment as he can and WILL listen to suggestions as long as you have evidence proving your claims.

[zinhwk]

I was going to leave it be, but now you are conflating requests for ultra sim functions and what I'm asking which is a simple change in display of existing information. You first said it was the best sim/game, now you shout it's just a game? Which is it?

I contend the Luftwaffe ammo counter is intuitive, just as easy to use, it can be labeled to make it obvious as well. Keep the trim indicators. Put them where the digital counter is. I think this would improve the model detail/sim characteristics for those interested (FSO crowd perhaps) without changing the way the game plays.

I'll present an example of the idea in General for more eyes in the interest of fact finding. If people don't like it or care so be it.

[The Fugitive]

I was going to leave it be, but now you are conflating requests for ultra sim functions and what I'm asking which is a simple change in display of existing information. You first said it was the best sim/game, now you shout it's just a game? Which is it?

I contend the Luftwaffe ammo counter is intuitive, just as easy to use, it can be labeled to make it obvious as well. Keep the trim indicators. Put them where the digital counter is. I think this would improve the model detail/sim characteristics for those interested (FSO crowd perhaps) without changing the way the game plays.

I'll present an example of the idea in General for more eyes in the interest of fact finding. If people don't like it or care so be it.

There is only one person that you need to convince and he has had it set like it is for over 10 years. Good luck.

[Oldman731]

There is only one person that you need to convince and he has had it set like it is for over 10 years. Good luck.

With respect, not quite right.  I don't believe HTC has been presented with this specific request.  The suggestion is simply to change the placement of 109 cockpit instruments.  It could be done.  In fact, given the general historical accuracy of the AH instrument panels, it probably should be done.  There's no effect on other aeroplanes.

- oldman

[Krusty]

It's been discussed a NUMBER of times, actually. Consensus is that it's totally unneeded and would be much more inaccurate than our number-readout-system we have now.

In reality, in WW2, it was useful because German pilots would have a rough idea of how much ammo they had left. In Aces High, where you can fly multiple combats in a single sortie, engage and disengage a dozen times, rearm on a hotpad, and keep going, you really need a better understanding of where you stand so you can decide when to turn back and when to keep going.

In WW2 you'd have combat then RTB. Your first combat was usually the last of the day (most times). The majority of pilots in all nations would fire their guns until they ran out then run away. The US pilots were notorious for that, too.

As for using the LW ammo counters for trim? I think it's a clever use of the historical cockpit layout to convey information. I can see how some might not appreciate it, however I don't think it's really worth it to shoe-horn them in somewhere else so that the analog and inaccurate ammo counters on just a few planes can be implemented.

P.S. Trim is not just "to make it easy" -- it's because of the differences with a real stick in a real plane with real forces on it vs a spring-centered joystick at a computer. Reality vs implementation. It's there to help mimic reality with the hardware we have. In the real case, you could just shift your "center" with a little more pressure and fly normally. In this game, your "center" is fixed because of the sensors/pots on your stick and the spring-to-center yields wildly out-of-trim situations that should be easier to overcome than we really can. That's how trim works in this game -- it's not "trim" trim it's just allowing you to shift your stick's "center." That's how we can have aileron trim in planes that didn't have adjustable aileron trim. It's not modelling the trim, but modelling you just holding the stick a fraction of an inch "to the left" instead. You'll see that the control surfaces actually deflect too.

[Dawger]

It's been discussed a NUMBER of times, actually. Consensus is that it's totally unneeded and would be much more inaccurate than our number-readout-system we have now.

In reality, in WW2, it was useful because German pilots would have a rough idea of how much ammo they had left. In Aces High, where you can fly multiple combats in a single sortie, engage and disengage a dozen times, rearm on a hotpad, and keep going, you really need a better understanding of where you stand so you can decide when to turn back and when to keep going.

In WW2 you'd have combat then RTB. Your first combat was usually the last of the day (most times). The majority of pilots in all nations would fire their guns until they ran out then run away. The US pilots were notorious for that, too.

As for using the LW ammo counters for trim? I think it's a clever use of the historical cockpit layout to convey information. I can see how some might not appreciate it, however I don't think it's really worth it to shoe-horn them in somewhere else so that the analog and inaccurate ammo counters on just a few planes can be implemented.

P.S. Trim is not just "to make it easy" -- it's because of the differences with a real stick in a real plane with real forces on it vs a spring-centered joystick at a computer. Reality vs implementation. It's there to help mimic reality with the hardware we have. In the real case, you could just shift your "center" with a little more pressure and fly normally. In this game, your "center" is fixed because of the sensors/pots on your stick and the spring-to-center yields wildly out-of-trim situations that should be easier to overcome than we really can. That's how trim works in this game -- it's not "trim" trim it's just allowing you to shift your stick's "center." That's how we can have aileron trim in planes that didn't have adjustable aileron trim. It's not modelling the trim, but modelling you just holding the stick a fraction of an inch "to the left" instead. You'll see that the control surfaces actually deflect too.

You don't have a clue how or what trim does in a real airplane or when and why a pilot would use it, apparently.

[zinhwk]

It's been discussed a NUMBER of times, actually. Consensus is that it's totally unneeded and would be much more inaccurate than our number-readout-system we have now.

In reality, in WW2, it was useful because German pilots would have a rough idea of how much ammo they had left. In Aces High, where you can fly multiple combats in a single sortie, engage and disengage a dozen times, rearm on a hotpad, and keep going, you really need a better understanding of where you stand so you can decide when to turn back and when to keep going.

In WW2 you'd have combat then RTB. Your first combat was usually the last of the day (most times). The majority of pilots in all nations would fire their guns until they ran out then run away. The US pilots were notorious for that, too.

As for using the LW ammo counters for trim? I think it's a clever use of the historical cockpit layout to convey information. I can see how some might not appreciate it, however I don't think it's really worth it to shoe-horn them in somewhere else so that the analog and inaccurate ammo counters on just a few planes can be implemented.

P.S. Trim is not just "to make it easy" -- it's because of the differences with a real stick in a real plane with real forces on it vs a spring-centered joystick at a computer. Reality vs implementation. It's there to help mimic reality with the hardware we have. In the real case, you could just shift your "center" with a little more pressure and fly normally. In this game, your "center" is fixed because of the sensors/pots on your stick and the spring-to-center yields wildly out-of-trim situations that should be easier to overcome than we really can. That's how trim works in this game -- it's not "trim" trim it's just allowing you to shift your stick's "center." That's how we can have aileron trim in planes that didn't have adjustable aileron trim. It's not modelling the trim, but modelling you just holding the stick a fraction of an inch "to the left" instead. You'll see that the control surfaces actually deflect too.

Okay. Ammo counter discussion.

1. Number of sorties is irrelevant to the function of the ammo counter, but just so you know it was common for the Germans to fly multiple sorties in a single day. Read any number of Luftwaffe journals. It comes down to location and mission and most of the war they were fighting over there own airfields. I'm noticing a trend in the counter argument to having everything compared to the Americans, why? Read more folks.

2. The function of the ammo counter is not wildly inaccurate. In the photo above, for game arguments sake, you have left to right MG 17(left), MG151, MG 17(right). It is pretty clearly displaying you have ~250rds each MG 17, and ~180rds of the cannon. Now real life, sure, hampered by electro-mechanical systems of the time, it would could be off a little, but you would be splitting hairs over 10-15 rds, in either case, you are RTB. In the game, yes I realize its a game, fed by on-the-gnats-ass digital numbers, it would display just as accurate real time information on your ammo count. Don't have white bars, go home. You would have a counter for each gun in your aircraft.

3. As far as cramming the beloved trim indicators elsewhere.. Why not? It is blended into the P-51, P-38 and many others nicely without disturbing the historical layout.

It really boils down to cosmetics/marketing. I stayed away from Aces High for a long time when it was AH2 over this issue really. I looked at the cockpit pictures and thought "ew, doesn't seem like these guys bother with research". How many others thought the same with every competitor game/sim getting this detail right? I like what AH3 offers to make it competitive again. I like that it is actively being looked at and issues responded to, something not being done in my previous corner of the internet, but it can still be improved in little areas to appeal to more people.

BTW I do realize this is a bottom of the totem pole item for Hitech. Hence future wishlist.

[hitech]

Your missing a couple of things on how slider and counter do not give the same information.

1. Tells you how many rounds  you have when you take off, vs simply % full.

2. Bombs/rockets are also an ammo again how many did you load when you took off?

Hitech

[Vraciu]

Hence the title " LW Ammo Counters"

Anyway, just bringing it up as the same argument can be said for trimming. You trim by "feel" thus having the indicators in your face as a primary instrument on the 109/190/110/410 rather than the actual ammo counters is a head scratcher for me. Years of getting used to one sight picture and then have that crammed in mess is jarring. Maybe one day I'll just ignore it.

I can tell people often talk to a brick wall here so that's all I gots to say bout dat.

A good suggestion I suppose.  I don't fly 109s much so I can't say I am personally invested.

Give it some time.  You'll get the feel for it and adapt.   Welcome aboard.

[zinhwk]

Your missing a couple of things on how slider and counter do not give the same information.

1. Tells you how many rounds  you have when you take off, vs simply % full.

2. Bombs/rockets are also an ammo again how many did you load when you took off?

Hitech

1. Maybe if the sz500/100 were measured in percent, but it is not. While the information is displayed is a slider, the tick marks are a count. Here is a clearer picture of a 190 panel with the "full" mark noted in quantity. The slide is at the number loaded.



2. I guess I make the clear distinction between ammunition (loaded in a gun), and ordnance (attached to the plane). The smart bellybutton answer to your question is yes, the hangar tells me how much is loaded. But for ordnance that's an area where concessions make sense to use the digi counter.

 Here is what I am imagining to blend historical correctness and game necessity. A 500 count or 200 count would cover most guns. You could even remove the bottom slide adjustment button and use a label for each counter for clarity. Depending on how the counters are sized you could have the ordnance window next to the counters. Same logic applied to the 190 in a layout like the example picture above.