How To Win In A Dogfight: Stories From A Pilot Who Flew F-16s And MiGs

[mthrockmor]

Saying they did well at Red Flag is a complete misnomer. Red Flag, rotations at Fort Irwin are designed to lose. The Op-for fights the known style of our enemy. They teach you how to defeat that known style, so if you do it right you will always beat them. Not to say it is easy, and they stack the odds against it, though that is how its designed.

Throw in, this is the most expensive weapons system in the history of the world, of course they can't allow any other messaging. My expertise with aviation is maxed out in AH3. I'm not a real pilot, etc, though I have a pretty solid background in politics, and very familiar with all things military culture, etc. I am a former tanker. That aside...there is nothing compelling in the F-35's performance at Red Flag to dispute the article, in my opinion.

boo

[PR3D4TOR]

Funny how people like you say these F-35 pilots are ordered to only say good things about the jet... Yet other USAF pilots like this aggressor Viper guy in the OP's article can speak his mind without repercussions. Serenity here has voiced his reservations about the plane on numerous occasions, so I take it he's not gotten the memo that USN pilots should only say good things about it. Apparently only F-35 pilots are ordered to lie and we should not believe them, or so you guys claim, but everyone else in the three services can talk it down all they like. Yeah... that's how stupid this conspiracy theory looks when you think about it.

[PR3D4TOR]

And before I forget, what about the other nations that are flying this jet? The Brits and Israelis to name two. They're not exactly known for sycophancy are they? What's in it for these customers to keep quiet about what a "pig" this plane is that they're paying top Dollar for? No, I don't buy into this conspiracy BS.

[mthrockmor]

I remember reading of the Israeli's helping the Indian Air Force upgrade. Among other things, they took the Mig-21, and gave it permanent external jammers, and renamed it the Buffalo(?). In any case, while the Mig-21 did not become stealth, it made locking on almost impossible, thus all fighting had to be done ACM.

In fact, Israel is going full non-stealth. Yes, they are buying some F-35s, though basically, the US is giving them foreign aide, which they in turn use to buy some F-35s. Translation, We The People are buying Israel some F-35s, and I suspect it is solely for the reason stated here: "Gee, the F-35 is so awesome even the Israelis are buying them!" It's like giving an NBA player a free pair of shoes to tell everyone, that NBA player loves my product!

The US would do well to dump the F-35, maybe even the F-22 and put all of that money back into F-15s and -16s. From a practical point of view, there isn't anything flying in the world, now or 20 years from now, that we can't dominate with upgraded Eagles and Vipers.

boo

[Vulcan]

And before I forget, what about the other nations that are flying this jet? The Brits and Israelis to name two. They're not exactly known for sycophancy are they? What's in it for these customers to keep quiet about what a "pig" this plane is that they're paying top Dollar for? No, I don't buy into this conspiracy BS.

Brits are starting wonder if they've been sold a pig wearing lipstick:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/04/f-35-stealth-jet-fighter-uk-faces-billions-extra-cost

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/12/f35_alis_software_delayed/

Controversially, it also sends each jet’s history back to the US, regardless of which country actually owns that aircraft – though Lockheed has promised it won’t read the pilots’ names.

So Russia and China will know exactly where your brand new F-35 is.

[Vraciu]

Funny how people like you say these CURRENT/ACTIVE DUTY/RESERVE F-35 pilots are ordered to only say good things about the jet...

Yet other USAF pilots like this RETIRED aggressor Viper guy in the OP's article can speak his mind without repercussions.

FIFY.  One of these things is NOT like the other.

Serenity here has voiced his reservations about the plane on numerous occasions, so I take it he's not gotten the memo that USN pilots should only say good things about it. Apparently only F-35 pilots are ordered to lie and we should not believe them, or so you guys claim, but everyone else in the three services can talk it down all they like.

Serenity is just a nugget at this stage in his career and has never flown the JSF.   His opinions, devoid of experience in the subject aircraft, are not a basis for concern to his bosses at present.    He still has a lot to learn about where the rubber meets the road here, and when he looks back on it the difference between then and now will be like night and day.   That said, the Navy clearly has a different standard of what is acceptable on this issue since they're not in love with the Just So Failed like the Marine Corps and Air Force Flying Clubs are.

You can debate the point all you wish, but the reality is...if someone in the Air Force expects to have a career going forward they had best not say anything other than what is expected of them regarding the F-35.   The military is a HIGHLY political (dis)organization.    Those who remember this will go far.  Those who don't will wind up like Billy Mitchell or John Boyd.

Yeah... that's how stupid this conspiracy theory looks when you think about it.

It's not a conspiracy theory.  It's a fact.  The Air Force got busted when their official PR *ORDERS* were leaked to the public.   I posted a link many months ago to the document (which, it appears, has been removed due to massive public embarrassment to the Air Force).

http://www.popularmechanics.com/flight/news/a17453/f-35-guidance-document-leaked/

http://warisboring.com/u-s-air-force-requires-airmen-to-praise-troubled-stealth-fighter/

[PR3D4TOR]

I'm not going to debate you guys further on this subject. I feel the fight's already won   The F-35 is not going to get cancelled. Trump was the last blade of grass you guys were grasping on to and now even he praises the virtues of the F-35. No government is having any reservations against it, only the "old media" who are desperate to stay relevant in a fast changing world of information technology. Just like the old farts who still think dog fighting is relevant. In ten years time many of you will probably still be in complete denial because you've invested so much of your ego into this. Especially you Vraciu since as we all know you can never be wrong. 

So you guys just go ahead and stay in your little echo chamber and bash the F-35 all you want. The people who matter, like the people who buy this jet and those who serve with it have moved on a long time ago, and they really no longer care what you think of it.

[Vraciu]

I'm not going to debate you guys further on this subject. I feel the fight's already won   The F-35 is not going to get cancelled. Trump was the last blade of grass you guys were grasping on to and now even he praises the virtues of the F-35. No government is having any reservations against it, only the "old media" who are desperate to stay relevant in a fast changing world of information technology. Just like the old farts who still think dog fighting is relevant. In ten years time many of you will probably still be in complete denial because you've invested so much of your ego into this. Especially you Vraciu since as we all know you can never be wrong. 

So you guys just go ahead and stay in your little echo chamber and bash the F-35 all you want. The people who matter, like the people who buy this jet and those who serve with it have moved on a long time ago, and they really no longer care what you think of it.

When the facts say I'm wrong I freely admit it. 

In this case, they don't.

It's a sad day when someone thinks a Brewster Buffalo is a "win".   It's even sadder to think there are people who will knowingly and frivolously sacrifice the lives of others for personal enrichment.   Ike warned us...

[Gman]

After 1/2 dozen exercises where a not even complete F35 in both A and B models, have dominated in both breaking through AA/AD and destroying targets far faster than other types, as well as in a2a vs the aggressors, it's hard to argue that the F35 is a big step forward.

Regarding it's maneuverability - yes, it's not absolutely as optimal as it could have been due to the nature of the boxy/wide airframe that was needed to acomodate all 3 variants.  That said, I've seen some vids of it pulling hard turns at low level - turns limited to 7g currently, with 9+ on the horizon with future updates.  Good example here - go to 3:29, and watch the 90 hard turn.  The pilot obviously relaxes the pull right before reaching 90, but to about 70 or 80 degrees....well I've timed it, and the degrees per second are very high.  Not that this is some major criteria to judge it, all I'm saying is that prematurely calling it some dog a2a, when it may not end up being the case when it's not even allowed to push the entire envelope yet...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOgb6tyVXL0

[Vraciu]

It doesn't have the juice.

The thing is a low-flying slug.

You're instincts are admirable, but this thing is junk.   It's over a decade behind.  By the time it reaches full capability the detection threat will have evolved to defeat it.  As it is, the thing is an X-band-only, front quarter stealth machine.

Time to move past the manned platform.    We've reached the limits of what the human can do.

[DaveBB]

Pentagon Wars all over again...