Author Topic: F-45?  (Read 4313 times)

Offline PJ_Godzilla

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F-45?
« on: March 13, 2017, 09:42:34 PM »
1. mustang II is an unfortunate appellation
2. Is it really likely to be designed in accord with Boyd/fighter mafia principles?
3. Has anyone pro or con yet changed their minds about F-35?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 10:23:32 PM »
1. mustang II is an unfortunate appellation
2. Is it really likely to be designed in accord with Boyd/fighter mafia principles?
3. Has anyone pro or con yet changed their minds about F-35?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445708/f-35-replacement-f-45-mustang-ii-fighter-simple-lightweight


I read that article.  I was not convinced that its author had aircraft design expertise even close to what I read in our AH forums.

"The new plane will be wonderful, and cheap, and fast and maneuverable, and we can build zillions of them!  And it's named the Mustang!"

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Offline Karnak

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2017, 12:12:14 AM »
I am skeptical that something as simple as he is describing could get production spread through nearly enough congressional districts to actually receive enough congressional support.
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Offline bustr

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 11:51:13 AM »
With the current budget consciousness being imposed by the occupant of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. This article reads more like someone appealing to a businessman with a good deal versus anything else. We live in interesting times and that occupant is not your traditional type of occupant.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 12:18:04 PM »
So this F-45 should be a really cheap and simple and yet very capable.. It's easy to come up with a cool concept but a bit harder to actually design that aircraft...
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 02:19:07 PM »
All points made are fair, but this is why I raised point 2. Recall that John Boyd, in "saving" the F-15 and in laying out the specs for the F-16 used a very different design brief; a specialized one.

No, the guy writing the article isn't a designer. In some ways, I'm trolling G Scholz here, for he best articulated the design brief for the F-35 using what I dubbed the logic of the horde. In it, we posit that, all other things being equal, the nation that uses its budget to build a fleet of multi role aircraft will win.

Of course, John Boyd was at the other end of that continuum of thinking. Indeed, the base assumption is flawed - all other things are not equal.

I'd add, the design brief that produced the f-16 was pretty specialized and, at least in its early production guises F-16c was reasonably priced, as far as it goes in that market.

In any case, I think we've seen the results of the f-35 design brief repeated too many times; F-111, and the whole century series were fatally compromised for a pure a2a role.

The question isn't so much one of can it be done. We know what a pure a2a brief produced in the pre-stealth generation. The real question is, what would the old lightweight fighter formula produce in THIS era, and is it likely to be worthwhile?

Thoughts, and I recognize we're all speculating, as was the author?
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Offline PJ_Godzilla

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2017, 02:24:49 PM »
I am skeptical that something as simple as he is describing could get production spread through nearly enough congressional districts to actually receive enough congressional support.

A fair point, given the Northrop history. They repeatedly got screwed, doubtless because they were relatively efficient and, worst of all, self-funded a lot of development. While universities will teach that sunk costs should never affect a decision, most Congressmen never went to schools that teach this, being typically of legal bent, and vulnerable to charges of waste if the sunk costs never make good... though F-16 was loaded enough to get support -though it was not popular in the Pentagon of the time, according to my source..
Some say revenge is a dish best served cold. I say it's usually best served hot, chunky, and foaming. Eventually, you will all die in my vengeance vomit firestorm.

Offline pembquist

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2017, 02:34:37 PM »
This sounds like the same old debate I first heard about when I was a kid in the 70's. The strength of this guy's argument lies in the fact that his "Mustang II" only exists as a figment of his imagination so it can have all of these superlative qualities without being constrained by the need to actually exist.

That said it does often seem like we'd have to borrow money from our opponent to pay for equipment after a week or two of actual warfare with a parity state, I imagine this will be possible as long as neither Switzerland or Singapore are nuked.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2017, 02:44:31 PM »
In a way the F-16 was a "F-45" A cheap fighter w/o a ton of expensive avionics and weapon systems. But over the years all that stuffs have been added because it was needed. Building a fleet of dedicated fighters means that you have to buy a bunch of ground attack aircrafts.

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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2017, 11:43:55 AM »
In some ways, I'm trolling G Scholz here...

 :rofl  That's alright Godzilla :)

After reading that it is clear to me the author is... Well... A moron. He's got his head in the past, like way in the past. For the last 35 years, since the F-117 first took flight, talking heads and "experts" have been predicting the death of stealth; that the Soviets, Russians, Chinese, whomever would soon develop a new radar that would defeat stealth. Thing is there is no secret stealth defeating frequency in the RF spectrum that we haven't found yet. For 35 years now people have been trying. Thirty-five years. There is no way to defeat stealth in the radar spectrum. It is here to stay. When the F-117 took to the skies it represented a paradigm shift in combat aircraft design and capabilities. During Desert Storm it flew alone and undefended over some of the most highly contested and defended airspace in the world, and it was untouchable. This tiny light bomber took out 40% of the strategic targets in Iraq.

On the sensor front he is equally behind the times. He states that "the fighter that powers up its big, powerful radar first turns itself into a great big target in the modern battlespace," which is archaic. He doesn't realize just how computer power has transformed radar, and just how advanced modern AESA radars are. Anyone who's owned an old radio or TV set knows how noisy the RF spectrum is. Back in the day the only way to get a radar signal through was the equivalent of shouting at the top of your lungs to your mate at the other side of a noisy night club full of people. A modern AESA radar is like a whisper. The radar signal is indistinguishable from the background noise and no RWR can pick up the signal.

We are transitioning from a world were everyone sees everyone else with AWACs and long range radars on fighters, to a world where no one can see anyone except at very short ranges. The future of air combat will look reminiscent of a time-lapse of submarine combat, where stealthy fighters/drones with stealthy sensors buzz around looking for each other. First to detect the enemy will get the first shot, and that shot will be 99.99% deadly, be it a missile so smart you could have a conversation with it, or a directed energy weapon that is simply point-and-click and poof you're dead.

He's also totally clueless of the realities of producing something so complex as a combat jet. There is an old adage about design that still rings true: You can make something advanced, reliable and cheap. Choose two.

Great troll. You got me hook line and sinker.  :D
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2017, 12:01:16 PM »
There are plenty of ways to defeat Stealth. especially if you are fighting over your own territory.  It is of course almost never a bad thing to force your enemy to develop new systems in order to detect your planes but even stealth will inevitably be "defeated".

And regarding the F-117: There was plenty of non stealth aircrafts that penetrated the same airspace as the Nighthawk and with the same tactic they also avoided to get shot down.

Stealth might be cool but it doesnt makes you invincible.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2017, 12:14:30 PM »
No there is no way to defeat stealth at present. If you're talking about other sensors than radar, like IR or other optical systems you're not defeating stealth. Stealth is only designed to defeat radar. In any case you're talking largely visual range systems that detect the emissions of the aircraft.
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Offline GScholz

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2017, 12:17:53 PM »
And yes, against a 4th-gen adversary stealth kinda does make you invincible.

F-22 or F-35 vs. any 4th-gen fighter. With the exception of flukes the F-22 or F-35 will win every... single... time.

Even with a novice in the 22/35 and an expert in the other plane.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2017, 12:22:20 PM by GScholz »
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline Zimme83

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2017, 12:32:05 PM »
Im not going to go further in this debate since it will lead nowhere but it seems like you need to do a little research on anti stealth technology.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline jskibo

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Re: F-45?
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2017, 12:43:39 PM »
Oh good, another F-20 Tigershark :)
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