It's coming this August...

[Drano]

I've been flying scenarios since way back in the AW days. Ran BoB a few times there too. Over all the years and I don't know how many times we've run BoB I don't think the RAF has EVER won! So I'd think something needs tweaking.

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[Vudu15]

I could see the exclusion of the later 88s but this business about the 110s will need to be looked at closely. As they were there, and just because they "may" tag you in a turn fight isint good enough. By that logic we should ban you as an unfair advantage...Kidding of course about banning you.

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[Drano]

They were there, that's a given. But in the real battle they were nothing short of target drones achieving next to no success and were withdrawn because of it.

Some tweak to make them more target drone-ish. Require full fuel load to increase weight? I dunno. It just ain't right. Like the 88s we've always had. They're so much faster than anything else that might intercept them they just might as well be B29s.

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[Vudu15]

We need some Do17s lol

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[Devil 505]

They were there, that's a given. But in the real battle they were nothing short of target drones achieving next to no success and were withdrawn because of it.

Some tweak to make them more target drone-ish. Require full fuel load to increase weight? I dunno. It just ain't right. Like the 88s we've always had. They're so much faster than anything else that might intercept them they just might as well be B29s.

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The main issue concerning the 110 during the Battle of Britain was the doctrine of close escort more than any actual performance disparity. The mission parameters put the 110 in a position it was ill-suited to recover from. The 110 saw more success when it was in a position to hunt freely - which were rare occasions at the time.

I'd say the a good analogy is just how poorly Hurricanes fared versus 109's in pure dogfights. A change in tactics to concentrate the Hurricanes on bombers saw their combat record improve.

[Bruv119]

i believe the version we have is running uprated engines / fuel so is faster than it should be greatly upsetting the delicate balance.
 
the spitfire should have no problems catching it in a dive but not so in AH.  it surely would have won the battle single handed!

because we can split the 12 hours up onto segments i dont think it is much of an ask to limit it towards the end.  guys assigned to it can just form another 109 gruppen.  with all the crying axis do around here getting planesets stripped back to give themselves a chance i reckon its time allies got one.   

[Devil 505]

i believe the version we have is running uprated engines / fuel so is faster than it should be greatly upsetting the delicate balance.
 
the spitfire should have no problems catching it in a dive but not so in AH.  it surely would have won the battle single handed!

because we can split the 12 hours up onto segments i dont think it is much of an ask to limit it towards the end.  guys assigned to it can just form another 109 gruppen.  with all the crying axis do around here getting planesets stripped back to give themselves a chance i reckon its time allies got one.   

Yes, our 110C-4/B is has the uprated engine, but it also has the bomb rack permanently fixed so there is a significant drag and weight penalty attached.


As for a segmented battle, I hate this idea. The entire purpose of having a 12 hour scenario is to represent the reality of dawn-to-dusk operations in a single day.

[Owlblink]

i believe the version we have is running uprated engines / fuel so is faster than it should be greatly upsetting the delicate balance.
 
the spitfire should have no problems catching it in a dive but not so in AH.  it surely would have won the battle single handed!

because we can split the 12 hours up onto segments i dont think it is much of an ask to limit it towards the end.  guys assigned to it can just form another 109 gruppen.  with all the crying axis do around here getting planesets stripped back to give themselves a chance i reckon its time allies got one.   

I can understand the idea of limiting them to the earlier segments so I would not argue against it or to disable them reupping after a specific time period in the event.

However… sooooo many scenarios turned out often favor the allies in point scoring systems and bobers, etc. so the "allies get one" claim beyond the BoB historical performance is nill.

Also, early warbirds tend to draw out more axis pilots, and more of the better sticks. That also has a factor.

Third, I question the claim a spit 1 could out accelerate a 110 in a dive on a historical front due to spitfire engine limitations ontop of other factors. I'm not an expert but a full powered dive from a 110 just seems faster.

Plan for the 110s (as other Scenario directors are so fond of telling us in regards to most things) fly real wingman strategies so you arent suckered into a furball and leave an elemnet or two higher to deal with any attempts a 110 has to make a pass on a stalling crate.

[Guppy35]

Who cares.  Lets just fly it

[FBDragon]

Ya think?

 

[Krusty]

They were there, that's a given. But in the real battle they were nothing short of target drones achieving next to no success and were withdrawn because of it.

They were also micromanaged to hell and gone, forced to fly within visual range of bombers at all times, give up any altitude and speed advantage to fly in close formation because of orders from above -- and they'd be punished if they disobeyed.

That's nothing to do with the plane itself. 90% of their losses were based on how they were used. 110s served a long long long time and in just about every role in the war. They were like the P-40 of the USA. Not the best but usually the worst cases of its losses were because of HOW it was used, not THAT it was used.

[Delirium]

In the last BoB scenario I flew the 110s. We were unstoppable! The thing could engage and disengage at will and had the firepower to down one or more RAF fighters in one pass. Unless the original variant is available, it will dominate the virtual skies once again.

The only weakness it had is the fact it had to limit the engagement to maintain a speed advantage. That isn't a weakness when you can leave Spitfires choking on your exhaust as you easily pulled away.

[Krusty]

Delerium, people keep throwing out that the C-4b we have is uber, overpowered, etcs. This is just false. In fact the only thing overmodeled is probably the roll rate. The model we have is quite slower than the "pure" 110C-4 fighter model. There's no real evidence anywhere -- ever -- to make anyone think the 110 is uber. It's all in how it's used. When I ran BOB I focused on hitting radar because I knew (with the power of 60 years of hindsight) how important it was. The Luftwaffe commanders didn't focus as much on it as I did and the results were quite different.

Again, all in how it's used, NOT the plane itself in this case.




Note how it tops out about 340mph. The "pure" thing did 350. It didn't have a permanent bomb rack weighing hundreds of pounds and greatly slowing down the top speed, to boot.

I really wish folks would stop harping on the 110C. I really do. It's a false debate and would be debunked if anybody read past the headline.

[Krusty]

Oh, and just to lay this "110 we have is uber" myth even more to rest, here's another nail in the coffin:



And here's another



The only thing it outruns is the hurricane Mk I, not known as a fast plane in any regard. Even then, the Hurr MkI is still damn close with WEP up to 15k or so.

[JunkyII]

What have been the altitude restrictions in the past?...because from those charts you could definitely get the Spitfires into a BnZ situation like Bruv and Del described...especially while the 109's are engaging them.in close combat.