Author Topic: Tanks Destroyers ??  (Read 4884 times)

Offline Rich46yo

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Tanks Destroyers ??
« on: March 28, 2017, 08:31:21 PM »
How effective were they ? While used in what way ? What was the best ones ? Any good books on them ?
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #1 on: March 28, 2017, 10:01:13 PM »
90 mm Gun Motor Carriage, M36

"Combat use

The first 40 M36s did not make it overseas until September 1944, and entered combat in October 1944. The First and Ninth US Armies used M36s to reequip battalions attached to armored divisions. The 703rd Tank Destroyer Battalion began reequipping on September 30, 1944. The Third US Army used them to reequip towed battalions. The 610th Tank Destroyer Battalion (Towed) began retraining on September 25, 1944.[7] The first tank destroyer battalion to actually receive the M36 in early September, The 776th, was in transit from Italy to Europe at the time and did not use them in combat until October 1944. The M36 was well-liked by its crews, being one of the few armored fighting vehicles available to US forces that could destroy heavy German tanks from a distance. Corporal Anthony Pinto of the 1st Platoon, Company A, 814th Tank Destroyer Battalion knocked out a Panther at 4,200 yards. Another 814th gunner, Lt. Alfred Rose, scored a kill against a Panther at 4,600 yards, the maximum range of the telescopic sight. However, the Panther's glacis plate could deflect certain shots from the 90 mm gun at just 150 yards, and the front armor of the Tiger II could not be penetrated at all.[8] By the end of 1944, seven tank destroyer battalions had converted to the M36. The M36 had mostly replaced the M10 by the end of the war."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M36_tank_destroyer



Hellcat

"Notable battles

On September 19, 1944, in the Nancy bridgehead near Arracourt, France, the 704th Tank Destroyer Battalion was attached to the 4th Armored Division. Lt. Edwin Leiper led one M18 platoon of C Company to Rechicourt-la-Petite, on the way to Moncourt. He saw a German tank gun muzzle appearing out of the fog 30 feet away, and deployed his platoon. In a five-minute period, five German tanks of the 113th Panzer Brigade were knocked out for the loss of one M18. The platoon continued to fire and destroyed ten more German tanks while losing another two M18s. One of the platoon's M18s commanded by Sgt Henry R. Hartman knocked out six of the German tanks, most of which were the much-feared Panthers.[23]

The M18 Hellcat was a key element during World War II in the Battle of the Bulge.[24] On December 19–20, the 1st Battalion of the 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment was ordered to support Team Desobry, a battalion-sized tank-infantry task force of the 10th Armored Division assigned to defend Noville located north-northeast of both Foy and of Bastogne just 4.36 miles (7 km) away. With just four[25] M18 tank destroyers of the 705th Tank Destroyer Battalion to assist, the paratroopers attacked units of the 2nd Panzer Division, whose mission was to proceed by secondary roads via Monaville (just northwest of Bastogne) to seize a key highway and capture, among other objectives, fuel dumps—for the lack of which the overall German counter-offensive faltered and failed. Worried about the threat to its left flank in Bastogne, it organized a major joint arms attack to seize Noville. Team Desobry's high speed highway journey to reach the blocking position is one of the few documented cases[25] in which the top speed of the M18 Hellcat – 50 miles per hour (80 km/h) – was actually used to get ahead of an enemy force.[25]

The attack of 1st Battalion and the M18 Hellcat tank destroyers of the 705th TD Battalion near Noville together destroyed at least 30 German tanks and inflicted 500 to 1,000 casualties on the attacking forces, in what amounted to a spoiling attack. A Military Channel historian credited the M18 destroyers with 24 kills, including several Tiger tanks, and believes that in part, their ability to "shoot and scoot" at high speed and then reappear elsewhere on the battlefield, confused and slowed the German attack, which finally stalled, leaving the Americans in control of the town overnight.[25] However, actual German combat records show that no Tiger tanks were in operation in the area at the time and that the nearest Tigers were some 20 km to the south east, still in Luxembourg.

Combat tactics

The average combat range noted by the Americans for tank vs. tank action was around 800 to 900 m (2,600 to 3,000 ft). The Hellcat had a gun that could penetrate roughly 3.5 in (88 mm) of armor at 2,000 m (2,200 yd), which was enough to penetrate a Panzer IV medium tank frontally. However, against the Panther, a Hellcat would be facing a tank with roughly 5.5 in (140 mm) of line-of-sight armor frontally that could not be pierced at any range, with a 3.9 in (100 mm) mantlet that could be pierced only at extremely short ranges unless using the exceedingly rare HVAP ammunition.[13][14] The 76 mm gun could knock out the Panther with relative ease from the flanks and rear, as the turret and side armor was weak and the quality of German armor plate declined in the last two years of the war. While Panthers in defense were formidable, Panthers in the attack had great difficulty in not exposing their vulnerable large side profiles. A common tactic for any AFV is employing the use of Hull down firing positions, which allows it to remain mostly behind cover while engaging the enemy."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M18_Hellcat



Jagdpanzer

"History

The Jagdpanzer designs followed on from the more lightly armoured Panzerjäger ("tank hunter") designs, which took an anti-tank gun and mounted it on top of a tank chassis with supplementary armour fitted around the gun crew, but due to its generally open rear and top, almost never providing the crew with full protection from the elements. Also, a lot of experience was gained from the Sturmgeschütz series of assault guns for infantry support, which already used heavily armoured casemates, completely enclosing the vehicle's crew—although they were associated with the artillery, they were very often used in the anti-tank role.

Tactical use

On the battlefield, the Germans sometimes had to retreat, or try to feign one. Their line of retreat would then preferably pass the location of their anti-tank units, who would use their superior firepower to stop the enemy, perhaps even make possible a counter-attack. Due to the lack of a turret and the armour being concentrated at the front, the ideal combat situation for Jagdpanzer units was in the planned ambush, and the skill of the commander of such units lay in correctly choosing and preparing such places long before needed."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer



Hetzer

Performance

The Jagdpanzer 38 fit into the lighter category of German tank destroyers that began with the Panzerjäger I, continued with the Marder series and ended with the Jagdpanzer 38. The 75 mm Pak 39 L/48 gun of the Jagdpanzer 38 was a modified version of the 75 mm StuK 40 L/48 used in the StuG III and StuG IV assault guns. With this gun the Jagdpanzer 38 was able to destroy nearly all Allied or Soviet tank types in service at long ranges (except heavy tanks) and its fully enclosed armor protection made it a safer vehicle to crew than the open-topped Marder II or Marder III series.

The Jagdpanzer 38 was one of the most common late-war German tank destroyers. It was available in relatively large numbers and was generally mechanically reliable.[9] Like some other late-war German SPGs, the Jagdpanzer 38 mounted a remote-control machine gun mount which could be fired from within the vehicle. This proved popular with crews, though to reload the gun a crewmember needed to expose himself to enemy fire.

Also, its small size made it easier to conceal than larger vehicles. A self-propelled gun such as this was not intended for a mobile, meeting engagement or the typical Wehrmacht blitzkrieg style of warfare. Instead, a light self-propelled gun like the Jagdpanzer 38 excelled when emplaced along pre-determined lines of sight where the enemy was expected to approach and when used in defensive positions to support a prepared ambush. The Jagdpanzer 38 is similar in its dimensions and vertical profile to the minuscule and undergunned Panzer II, a prewar tank. However, by 1944 the majority of tanks were dramatically larger and heavier, making a Jagdpanzer 38 waiting motionless in ambush a very small target to detect, much less hit. Its main failings were comparatively thin side armor, limited ammunition storage, poor gun traverse, poor internal layout that made operating the vehicle difficult, as well as leaf springs and drive wheels that were prone to failure due to the increased weight.[10] Using the Jagdpanzer 38 and similar vehicles according to a defensive doctrine would offset some of the disadvantages of poor side armor and limited gun traverse.

Operational history

The Jagdpanzer 38 first entered service with the Heeres Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 in July 1944. This unit was sent to Army Group North on the Eastern Front.[11] One report from the Eastern Front described that a company of Hetzers destroyed 20 enemy tanks without any losses.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hetzer



Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2017, 12:14:16 AM »
How effective were they ? While used in what way ? What was the best ones ? Any good books on them ?

The Tank Killers - A History of America's World War II Tank Destroyer Force.  It goes into detail on the training and doctrine of the TDs in addition to war time service.
 
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2017, 01:07:07 PM »
So were they mixed with regular tanks during advances? Apparently Americans used them as flanking vehicles because of their speed, I'm wondering if the Soviets and Germans did the same. The German ones strike me as more defensive in nature. How involved were they at Kursk?

I guess I really have some reading to do. I know a little about American TDs but very little about the other ones. Framkly when it comes to armor reading I'm more interested in the Eastern front. Thanks.
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2017, 01:56:54 PM »
So were they mixed with regular tanks during advances? Apparently Americans used them as flanking vehicles because of their speed...

TDs were supposed to deal with any armored threat, while the tanks supported the infantry.  However, in reality the TD doctrine was rarely followed and the TDs found themselves being used as infantry support and as mobile artillery at times. 

Also, TDs weren't just vehicles, TDs included towed anti-tank guns.

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2017, 02:10:16 PM »
My interest is in the vehicles and the doctrine. And how they meshed in actual armored battles.

For instance the TD appears to me more dependent on infantry support. I dont see it as a "break thru type" vehicle. Dont get me wrong, I love ATGs too. In those I think the Germans had everyone beat. Most of all the 75mm one, was it the L40?
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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2017, 02:17:31 PM »
Good ole Achtung Panzer http://www.achtungpanzer.com/sturmgeschutz-iii-sturmgeschutz-iv.htm

So the Germans designed them and their tactics for offensive purposes but reality made them very effective entrenched weapons. However...
Quote
Quote
Ps.531-19 in action !Ps.531-19 commanded by Lieutenant Mauri Sartio destroyed 4 enemy tanks in a very short period of time. Gunner was Corporal Olof Lagus (he was a son of commander of Finnish Armour Division Ruben Lagus). On June 14th of 1944, Finns attacked to retake the village of Kuuterselkä. It was the first time when Finnish Stugs were used in action. It started near midnight (in the Summer it is not dark at night in Finland). First Stugs destroyed some machine guns and anti-tank guns. Suddenly, Sartio’s Stug saw Soviet T-34/85 just 15 meters left to their Stug. As fast as a lightning, driver turned Stug 90 degrees to the left, and Corporal Lagus fired. T-34 started to burn immediately. When it started to burn, Sartio’s crew saw numerous other soviet tanks. Young Corporal fired again and two other T-34 tanks were destroyed. Two other T-34 tanks tried to escape, but Lagus destroyed one of them and second T-34, which managed to drive 70 meters, was destroyed by other Stug. All this had taken only 1 to 2 minutes. All Soviet tanks were T-34/85 tanks and ready for action, but fast reaction of Finnish tankers spoiled their opportunity. Amount of enemy tanks destroyed by Stugs in this attack was 11 T-34/85 tanks, 2 ISU-152 assault guns, 1 IS-2 tank and 1 KV-1 tank.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 02:21:00 PM by Rich46yo »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2017, 02:31:03 PM »
Apparently Americans used them as flanking vehicles because of their speed, I'm wondering if the Soviets and Germans did the same.


That was the theory - fast tank destroyers running rings around enemy tanks, while the Shermans shot up the infantry positions.  Obviously that notion didn't work so well in places like towns, the Ardennes, or any other location where racing around was not an option.

Russians and Germans went the other way, with heavily armored, big-gunned and un-turreted vehicles that could be produced in large numbers.

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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2017, 04:51:58 PM »
My interest is in the vehicles and the doctrine. And how they meshed in actual armored battles.

For instance the TD appears to me more dependent on infantry support. I dont see it as a "break thru type" vehicle. Dont get me wrong, I love ATGs too. In those I think the Germans had everyone beat. Most of all the 75mm one, was it the L40?

The book I linked in my first post is what you're looking for in regards to the TD doctrine used by the US and goes into detail on actual engagements of US tank destroyers.  It really doesn't separate vehicles and towed AT TD units since the TD doctrine encompassed both types of units.  It's a really good book and pretty much details how the TD doctrine failed for the most part.

An interesting part of the TD's history, for me at least, was their training.  Members of TD units were given extensive training, especially in the use of explosives and recon.  IIRC, TD training included some elements of commando training and were considered specialized, elite troops.
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Offline Arlo

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Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #10 on: March 29, 2017, 08:46:55 PM »
The book I linked in my first post is what you're looking for in regards to the TD doctrine used by the US and goes into detail on actual engagements of US tank destroyers.  It really doesn't separate vehicles and towed AT TD units since the TD doctrine encompassed both types of units.  It's a really good book and pretty much details how the TD doctrine failed for the most part.

An interesting part of the TD's history, for me at least, was their training.  Members of TD units were given extensive training, especially in the use of explosives and recon.  IIRC, TD training included some elements of commando training and were considered specialized, elite troops.

German TDs went to elite formations too didnt they?
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2017, 08:57:12 PM »
German TDs went to elite formations too didnt they?

I'm not sure, not familiar with the German's TD doctrine or the training they had to undergo. 
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Offline Bushmills

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2017, 09:09:04 PM »
German tiger crews had to know how to use scuba equipment and do the backstroke as part of their training for deep wading.

Offline FBKampfer

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2017, 09:53:23 PM »
Ostensibly, high performance vehicles like the Tiger, Tiger II, Jagdpanther, etc were supposed to go to veteran units. However the SS generally got first crack at things, regardless of unit quality or combat record. Not to say that the SS crews were poor quality, only that an outstanding Heer unit might be passed over in favor of a very good SS unit.

However at the end of things, there weren't enough veteran crews to go around. There are anecdotes of newer, less disciplined crews losing Tiger II's and Jagdpanthers and Elefants because they lost their nerve under fire and turned around instead of reversing.


The Tigers were supposed to serve in independent heavy tank battalions (sPzAbt, sHPzAbt, or sSSPzAbt in abbreviations for heavy panzer battalion, army heavy panzer battalion, and SS heavy panzer battalion respectively), and for the most part did so. However they also were allocated to individual battlegroups, or attached to other units, rarely below the company level.

Additionally, per German TOE, the tank destroyers were supposed to serve in the infantry antitank arm, which is why one will often find pictures of tank destroyers and StuGs, particularly the lighter units late in the war, crewed by men wearing feldgrau uniforms, instead of black Panzertruppen uniforms.

However they were used as tank substitutes with increasing frequency later and later in the war. It was rare to issue different vehicles below the company level for the purpose of unit cohesion, though it wasn't uncommon to see a Panzerkompanie issued with StuGs or Jagdpanzers in a Panzerabteilung comprised mostly of Panthers.
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Offline PR3D4TOR

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Re: Tanks Destroyers ??
« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2017, 10:23:41 PM »
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