Washed out whites?

[oboe]

Did you guys ever resolve the washed out whites issue?   I've modified Beantown Banshee's white D-Day stripes from white, to off-white, to dirty off-white, and have played around with specularity and power settings from 0 to 255 and points in between.

I've deleted my power and spec maps to let the default maps (which are for an olive drab aircraft with invasion stripes) override, and I still get extreme washout of the whites on the upper wing surfaces at high sun angles.  As the sun goes down or behind clouds, the washout diminishes.

I've noticed that the default skin shows this washout depending on sun angle as well.  But I thought I might be able to control it with my own settings in the power and spec maps, but nothing I do seems to solve it.

[Skuzzy]

You do realize that is the entire point of specular?  Specular is the reflection of the Sun.  The reflection of the Sun wipes out (or nearly wipes put) the actual color and the degree to which that color is obliterated is based on the reflectivity of the Sun.

We have a Sun in the game.  If you catch it at a reflection angle of 90 degrees, you are going to get the full blown impact specular brings to the party which WILL serve to decimate the color, to some degree.  The spread is based on the power map, the level is based on the specular map.

Walk out to any parking lot on a sunny day and look at the cars.  Without fail, where the Sun is being reflected off the surface of the car, the color will be obliterated, or nearly obliterated in that specific spot.  The size of the spot will be based on the surface contour, combined with the reflectivity of the surface.

In the game, the overall reflectivity is controlled by the power and specular maps.

[Skuzzy]

Here is an image, of a plane, with some direct reflection of the Sun off parts of it.

Note:  In every instance, the underlying color is obliterated by the specular.  It is very apparent on the cockpit bubble, and along the fuselage.

[oboe]

Thanks, I'm aware that the power and specularity maps control the reflectivity (my understanding is the spec file controls the intensity of the reflected sunlight and the power map controls the level of diffusion of the reflected light - i.e., focused or spread out).

Nice shot of the F-4, and I note the reflectivity from the canopy (a gloss surface) and the glare along the top of the fuselage, which should be painted with some form of non-spectacular gray (low gloss), if I'm not mistaken.  So in real life, even flat paint exhibits glare at certain angles of sunlight.

Here are screenshots to illustrate my question.  First, the aircraft at 1645 hrs, in which the sun angle is low so we can see the dirt and grime on the white DDay stripes:



Now, same angle and camera position - but local time is 10am:



The sun has obliterated the detail in the white stripes.   But, I am using pure black (hex 0's) power and spec bitmaps in this shots.   So shouldn't my pure black maps eliminate the glare?   I know the maps are working, because I can produce or eliminate the glare effect on the cowl top anti-glare OD paint for example.   But when the underlying color is white (or off-white, in this case) I'm not able to exert the same influence on the glare effect.

EDIT: I'm wondering about this, and thinking maybe we don't have complete control of specularity - that is, instead of the spec map controlling the complete range of specularity from zero to absolute maximum, maybe we only control it from some default or "base" level up to its maximum?   So, even if we code a pure black spec map for an object, the object still has some basic level of specularity.   And if the object is white or near white in color, even at that lowest level of specularity, it will wash out under direct light?   

[Vraciu]

That would make sense.   We definitely have a different level/range of control compared to AH2 it seems.   

[oboe]

V, didn't you and Devil hash out a bunch of stuff about washed out whites in a thread?  I thought I remembered a thread where Devil showed pics of the wash out and how to control it by using darker shades of white, but I can't recall the conclusion about whether it worked or not.

I can work with the capabilities or limitations of the system - it's given us so much more control than we had before.  I just want to be sure I understand it and I'm doing it correctly.  Its only the behavior of whites that cause me to think I'm not quite getting how it works.

For example, if I set the specularity of something to zero, I would expect it to look in game like it does in my bmp file - no glare would be produced, and so it looks the same, independent of sun angle.  And that's pretty much what I see when I play with the specularity of the anti-glare O.D. color on the cowl top.   

Its almost like glare is a combination not only the power and spec maps, but also the shade of the underlying color...as the color approaches white, the power and spec maps have less influence and its gonna create glare at certain sun angles.

[Nefarious]

(Image removed from quote.)

ZOMG! F-4 to Aces High 3!  

[Devil 505]

V, didn't you and Devil hash out a bunch of stuff about washed out whites in a thread?  I thought I remembered a thread where Devil showed pics of the wash out and how to control it by using darker shades of white, but I can't recall the conclusion about whether it worked or not.

It worked, somewhat. what I did was use a faded black layer over pure white to gauge the difference in change. I used 15% black and 20% black. While 20% black made for better whites in direct sunlight, the color looks far too gray at all other times. I now use a 15% black layer over any white - but washout is still an issue.


The wing stripes are done for the experiment - all other white markings are with 15% black. Each wing has a pure white section as a control and a faded black section directly against it. Left wing is 15% black and the right has 20% black.

At low light angles, the difference in tone is clear between the pure white and the sections with faded black.


at high angles, washout is still severe, but details are better retained in the black sections and the effect is progressively lessened the farther the tone shifts away from pure white.

[Devil 505]

FYI, the Phantom was painted in gloss paints, but the glossiness would dull to a semi-gloss after some time at sea.

[oboe]

Interesting about the Phantom.  I thought the Vietnam ere Navy jets had really nice looking schemes.

Thanks for the info - those are pics from the thread I referred to.  Q: you use a 15% black layer over white to darken the white.  Why not just use the layer brightness control to darken the white, rather than overlaying with a mostly transparent black layer?   The end result would be the same, right?

I was thinking an uneven dirty, grimy white could be represented in the with corresponding variations in the spec file, but even black specularity isn't affecting the glare under direct sunlight.   Glad you posted the pics though, so I know its not my technique or incorrect settings in the spec file.

Thanks

[Vraciu]

Interesting about the Phantom.  I thought the Vietnam ere Navy jets had really nice looking schemes.

Thanks for the info - those are pics from the thread I referred to.  Q: you use a 15% black layer over white to darken the white.  Why not just use the layer brightness control to darken the white, rather than overlaying with a mostly transparent black layer?   The end result would be the same, right?

I was thinking an uneven dirty, grimy white could be represented in the with corresponding variations in the spec file, but even black specularity isn't affecting the glare under direct sunlight.   Glad you posted the pics though, so I know its not my technique or incorrect settings in the spec file.

Thanks

You will also see stripes wiggle when moving the light source around at certain angles.  This is really stark with a black stripe on a metal wing. 

[Devil 505]

Thanks for the info - those are pics from the thread I referred to.  Q: you use a 15% black layer over white to darken the white.  Why not just use the layer brightness control to darken the white, rather than overlaying with a mostly transparent black layer?   The end result would be the same, right?

I developed the method from fading the cross markings which were black and white. The simple solution was to make a copy of the cross layer and invert the colors on a layer above and reduce the layer opacity to the desired level.

[oboe]

I developed the method from fading the cross markings which were black and white. The simple solution was to make a copy of the cross layer and invert the colors on a layer above and reduce the layer opacity to the desired level.

Oh sure, that makes sense.

[Vraciu]

I like it.    Gonna have to try this.

[JOACH1M]

Devil is that a real 109 skin you creating to submit into game?