Author Topic: PBY observer / resupply / attack role  (Read 565 times)

Offline RedBeard

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PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« on: June 06, 2017, 05:20:54 PM »
I was interested in what seaplane support might be added that would not be out of line with historical use and still fit in the game.  My first choice would be the PBY.  I went and looked at all the other threads regarding the PBY and yes, there's a long list going a long way back, but I think there's a possible niche that the plane could fill.

First, historically, the PBY was used extensively in the Pacific due to its range.  It was used for sub hunting, maritime patrol, night attack and naval interdiction, and search and rescue.

What do we not need from the PBY in AH?  We don't need it for sub hunting or night attack.  I suppose it could be used for naval interdiction if anyone was inclined to take a slow plane like the PBY over a fleet (which is why it was used for night attack), but it wouldn't be my first choice.  We don't need SAR either.  That pretty much leaves maritime patrol and the ability to run supplies.

Running supplies is something that is probably faster done by GVs if it's intra-island field resupply.  If it's inter-island, then C-47s are faster, as longer as there are airfields to takeoff from.  So what happens if a map uses a substantial number of port only islands between countries?  For example, in the ndisles map, what if all the small islands only had ports or mostly had ports? This would probably be a more idealistic representation of a maritime conflict anyway.  The only way to run supplies inter-island would be a long hop from a large island airfield in a C-47 or a short hop from a port.  Hence, one particular need for the PBY.



Now, if we do two things, the PBY could play a significant role.  The first is that radar identifies not only air targets, but CV groups as well.  If you want to make a distinction, then radar at ports is allowed to identify CV groups.  Note, that fleets should be able to see other fleets on radar as well.  I would expect CV groups and ports to detect other CV groups at longer ranges than aircraft due to their size.

The second thing we need to do is enable PBYs.  PBYs should only launch from ports.  They can carry GV or field supplies or up to 4,000 lbs of bombs if you are desperate.  However, they also carry mobile radar which can identify CV groups as well as air targets.  Hotpad would be allowed at airfields, but if you tower out, you can't takeoff in a PBY from an airfield.  PBY pilots could get fractional perk points for having enemy targets destroyed within their radar coverage.

Losing radar is a common issue we all have run into, particularly when someone takes out HQ.  Adding PBYs could provide AWACS style radar support for fields under attack assuming that a port is reasonably close for a PBY to get into the air and fly there.  It would also work quite well for CV group search functions (maritime patrol), to monitor the gaps between the island port radars. To make it even more interesting, allow AWACS support only within local radio range (vox or chat? hmm?) of the PBY.  In other words, you only get to see the mobile AWACS radar data if you are close enough to talk to the PBY radar operator to get situation updates.

If an AWACS style PBY were allowed, then taking out the HQ could be made harder to recover from, which would add more interest in the strategic aspects as well.  It gives options for expending resources to strategically recover the HQ / country radar or expend resources for tactical radar coverage.

I can think of other possible ways to use a PBY in this fashion that mirror military tactics, but that will have to wait until possibilities become realities.

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2017, 06:30:54 PM »


Losing radar is a common issue we all have run into, particularly when someone takes out HQ.  Adding PBYs could provide AWACS style radar support for fields under attack assuming that a port is reasonably close for a PBY to get into the air and fly there.  It would also work quite well for CV group search functions (maritime patrol), to monitor the gaps between the island port radars. To make it even more interesting, allow AWACS support only within local radio range (vox or chat? hmm?) of the PBY.  In other words, you only get to see the mobile AWACS radar data if you are close enough to talk to the PBY radar operator to get situation updates.

If an AWACS style PBY were allowed, then taking out the HQ could be made harder to recover from, which would add more interest in the strategic aspects as well.  It gives options for expending resources to strategically recover the HQ / country radar or expend resources for tactical radar coverage.

I can think of other possible ways to use a PBY in this fashion that mirror military tactics, but that will have to wait until possibilities become realities.

You're giving an ability to the PBY that it didn't have in the war.  The PBY was not used at any time as an "AWAC" type of plane.  Yes, it had an air to surface radar but the primary tool for searching for surface targets was the old trusty Mark 1 I-Ball and the crew still had to radio in the position of the target, it didn't magically appear on everyone's radar. 

Quite frankly, if one of the main arguments for adding the PBY is its search capabilities, there are other planes currently in the game that were used for the same purpose and could function just as well, if not better than the PBY in that role.  For example, for the B-17, B-24 and B-26 can easily fill the roll of maritime scouting/recce, as can the SBD and TBM as each of those planes were used extensively by the USAAF and USN in the maritime scount/recce role.  The B-17, B-24 and B-26 have the added advantage of a larger ordnance load than the PBY that would enable them to do more damage to the spotted target than the PBY could and it would not be unrealistic as the USAAF (until 1943 by agreement with the USN) was in charge of the anti-maritime duties, which also included maritime scouting/recce.

 
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Offline lunatic1

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Re: PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2017, 09:25:09 PM »
not to mention the fact that fighter/attack fly much faster and can cover more ocean than a PBY, don't get me wrong I love the PBY-it was the 1st airplane model I ever built as a kid..
and something else, in the movie Midway- I know it's just a movie some aspects were true, they used PBY's radio code name Strawberry to search for Yamamoto's fleet, they used binoculars to search for the fleet, not radar
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Offline RedBeard

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Re: PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2017, 09:58:31 AM »
Maybe we are getting bogged down in semantics.  Regardless of whether RL PBYs used radar or Mk I eyeball (my guess is they used both), they were used as a mechanism to find the enemy and report their position.  It was a significant role played by that aircraft in maritime warfare.  I think we all agree on that.

The question is, how do you replicate that kind of functionality in AH and what makes it any more useful than any other plane?  Reality aside, this is a game and there have been a number of concessions to game play.  So, can adding a dedicated observer role provide a somewhat historically accurate use of the aircraft and provide better game play?  I think the answer is yes.  A dedicated observation plane would need to be more functional than taking a single fighter or other bomber aircraft out and just looking around.  Give the PBY the ability to spot further than the eyeball.  It may be slow, but a larger coverage area can balance that.

There also needs to be a balance in game play as well.  Why aren't the factories, cities, and HQ in particular destroyed more often?  Well, it doesn't seem to cause enough impact to warrant the effort.  If it did cause a big enough impact, people would complain and switch sides, etc.  So, why not add more impact and provide a layer of balance for that?

If you are going to argue against "AWACS", you should probably start arguing to remove the radar support we have in the game now.  Radar was not deployed throughout the entire country, nor did it tell the operator that a return was enemy or friendly, nor count (not in the detail we have), nor bomber vs. fighter.  The radar we have in AH today is a concession to game play that takes the place of ground control capabilities we don't have dedicated in the game.

As for using other aircraft, those aircraft are already in AH and already have roles assigned to them.  In addition, when I think of maritime patrol in the Pacific, the first thing I think of is PBY.  I don't think of B-17 or SBD.  I'm looking at the iconic roles provided by aircraft.

Offline lunatic1

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Re: PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2017, 10:40:05 AM »
Britain had radar on their eastern coast at several bases which is the only area they needed them, since Germany was attacking from the east and any thing from the east would be german, and the brits had radio and coast watchers to id the planes.
 although this game isn't based on WWII it's plane set and gv set are, they did not have AWACS,
the aircraft in Aces high are partically assigned to to any particular thing, there are bombers fighters and Attack fighters. any of which could be and are used to scout for fleets. the bombers and fighters are much faster than a PBY and can cover more area faster..

which is what I and a lot of others use to locate fleets, which isn't hard to do, all you gotta do is fly toward enemy port.
I'm not going to stuck in a slow defenseless plane, I know they have .050 cal or .030 cal guns but is not as heavily armed as a regular bomber.

as far as the strats are concerned they are almost always the 1st target for bish and rook to hit mostly knights strats 1st esp when a new map comes up

and it takes 100,000 pds of ords to take down a HQ and then it's only down for 5 minutes.. I took a M4 with rockets and had 8 boxes of supp from 50 feet away and it took 7 boxes of supps/rockets to kill HQ but it popped back up in 5 minutes a grand waste of time.

-1 to the PBY
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Offline JVboob

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Re: PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 08:10:47 PM »
Maybe we are getting bogged down in semantics.  Regardless of whether RL PBYs used radar or Mk I eyeball (my guess is they used both), they were used as a mechanism to find the enemy and report their position.  It was a significant role played by that aircraft in maritime warfare.  I think we all agree on that.

The question is, how do you replicate that kind of functionality in AH and what makes it any more useful than any other plane?  Reality aside, this is a game and there have been a number of concessions to game play.  So, can adding a dedicated observer role provide a somewhat historically accurate use of the aircraft and provide better game play?  I think the answer is yes.  A dedicated observation plane would need to be more functional than taking a single fighter or other bomber aircraft out and just looking around.  Give the PBY the ability to spot further than the eyeball.  It may be slow, but a larger coverage area can balance that.

There also needs to be a balance in game play as well.  Why aren't the factories, cities, and HQ in particular destroyed more often?  Well, it doesn't seem to cause enough impact to warrant the effort.  If it did cause a big enough impact, people would complain and switch sides, etc.  So, why not add more impact and provide a layer of balance for that?

If you are going to argue against "AWACS", you should probably start arguing to remove the radar support we have in the game now.  Radar was not deployed throughout the entire country, nor did it tell the operator that a return was enemy or friendly, nor count (not in the detail we have), nor bomber vs. fighter.  The radar we have in AH today is a concession to game play that takes the place of ground control capabilities we don't have dedicated in the game.

As for using other aircraft, those aircraft are already in AH and already have roles assigned to them.  In addition, when I think of maritime patrol in the Pacific, the first thing I think of is PBY.  I don't think of B-17 or SBD.  I'm looking at the iconic roles provided by aircraft.

very true the impact i what drove the down times to what they are now. There were a group of dedicated Gvers that would keep an HQ down all day...
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Offline icepac

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Re: PBY observer / resupply / attack role
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2017, 08:54:18 PM »
It takes more than a dedicated group of GV'ers to keep HQ down all day.

It takes an entire country of morons to not figure it out.

It's not good when people too lazy or stupid to find the fun in busting those missions have to lobby the rest of the players and HTC to change the game to suit their lack of ability to figure it out.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 08:57:38 PM by icepac »