P-61?

[Wyatt134]

with the built in dar it would be a nice scout plane for pack hunting as well as small bombing runs

[Ack-Ack]

with the built in dar it would be a nice scout plane for pack hunting as well as small bombing runs

It didn't work that way in real life.  The range of the A2A radar was very short and the night fighter had to be mostly guided by ground control to the vicinity of the bandit until it got close enough to locate it on radar then the night fighter pilot had to rely on his own eyesight to get final visual on the bandit.

[MiloMorai]

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/NightFighterRadars/index.html

WW2 US airborne radar

[pangea]

I believe that people just want a new plane to fly that can cause destruction. Some guy will specialize in this plane and be a big threat in the MA just like; cobia (A20), Ghi (IL-2), and torquilla (410).

Is cobia still active in AH?  Haven't seen him flying in a long time.  Whenever I saw an A-20 I was wary of it in case it was him.

[oakranger]

Again, it doesn't fit any role in AH that another plane doesn't already fill just as well, if not better.

Dose it really matter? 

[Ack-Ack]

Dose it really matter?

Yes, it actually does.

[JOACH1M]

Is cobia still active in AH?  Haven't seen him flying in a long time.  Whenever I saw an A-20 I was wary of it in case it was him.

not sure. I been afk 3 months

[streakeagle]

The P-61 might be a hangar queen, but that eventuality didn't keep many other aircraft from being added to AH. Not having a working radar would be little different than the P-51 not having the K-14 gyro sight and tail warning radar. Aircraft that were much more rare and much less employed are already in AH. Duplicate functionality is hardly an argument as there are plenty of aircraft with nearly identical/overlapping capabilities in the plane set. The main argument not to add the P-61 would be that some other type would be a better way to spend resources. But the AH planes set has never been completely about balance. The favoritism towards the US and to a lesser extent the Luftwaffe is skewed to what is famous and/or popular with the target audience of largely US players.

The models hanging from my ceiling are largely the models I would expect to see in AH. They include the PBY Catalina and the P-61. In fact, besides those two, the only other WW2 models I have that aren't in AH are the Helldiver, the Tigercat, and the Bearcat. I understand that the Tigercat and Bearcat will never be in AH, but the Catalina, Black Widow, and Helldiver all belong.

[bozon]

The hangar queens of AH are very significant historically and play major roles in special events. Some of the most popular MA planes were historically insignificant or use comfigurations that were very rare.

P61 will have no use in historical special events. It will see some use in the MA, so it will not be entirely useless. It has a place in AH though I'd say that priority-wise, it is a competitor for the bottom of the list. The Helldiver that you mentioned is well above it in the list - my list, since I have not seen HT's.

[Krusty]

Not having a working radar would be little different than the P-51 not having the K-14 gyro sight and tail warning radar. Aircraft that were much more rare and much less employed are already in AH.

No, there's quite a big difference. You need to read up on night fighter action in WW2 more. From the early days when you just used radio guided intercepts to the end-of-war radar-equipped night fighters. It was hours of cat and mouse in pitch black skies. If you were a P-61 pilot you would be guided to within 2 miles of a target and then you had to estimate based on last known locations to narrow it down because the ground radar wasn't precise enough to tell you where it was. You then had to close in to within less than a mile before your onboard radar would even spike.

Then on top of that, you still couldn't see ANYTHING. Purely instrument flying most times. If you got a slight blip on your radar, you would change course and zig-zag until you saw if the spike went away (in which case you go back to hunting based on last known course) or if it becomes a larger spike. If it becomes a larger spike you slowly close the distance bit by bit by bit, and after a long long time, often an hour or more, you would close to within 100 yards.

Then you MIGHT be able to pick the target up visually. Often you'd get to 50 yards. 50 yards from a major 4-engine bomber. That's when you'd maybe spot the tiny flames licking at the exhausts or some other clue. Then you'd position for a shot and fire at the engine on the wing, bank and get the hell OUT of there after 1 burst. As soon as you fire, your night vision was diminished and the bomber's guns would wake up and pour withering fire into you at 50 yards' distance.


Now translate that to daytime. Not even AH daytime, just translate that to daytime. You'd never need ground control to stay on the radio with you. You'd get periodic updates and spot bombers, even mass formations, from 10 miles out or more depending on contrails. You'd be a slow and vulnerable heavy gun platform and easily shot at from much farther than your onboard radar can even register a spike. You'd never get close. You'd be sluggish and underpowered. If anybody showed up as escort you'd be driven off miles from your target and possibly shot down and killed.

There is a very real reason these planes operated only at night. They wouldn't have survived in the day. It just so happens that they could get some limited success in the dark but it would be an entire night for just a chance at one single attack, then you were done for the night.


Do you really think that has anything to compare to the P-51's gunsight? I think not. Not even close. You're nitpicking a minor detail with the entire purpose of a plane.

If you want night fighters and WW2 night fighting, you need a game tailored to it, that can even come close to representing it. The truth is nightfighting is 100% cat and mouse where one side never sees the other until they're dead, or nothing happens. That kind of slow gameplay and meticulous boredom is best left to an offline WW2 sim, not an online "combat" sim.

[Arlo]

The hangar queens of AH are very significant historically and play major roles in special events. Some of the most popular MA planes were historically insignificant or use comfigurations that were very rare.

P61 will have no use in historical special events. It will see some use in the MA, so it will not be entirely useless. It has a place in AH though I'd say that priority-wise, it is a competitor for the bottom of the list. The Helldiver that you mentioned is well above it in the list - my list, since I have not seen HT's.

^ This! I'm surprised some in the community still don't get ^THIS.

Right now, events enjoy more traffic than the MA (although I had hoped for that, I also hoped it would be with higher population, overall).

Historical event holes:

Curtiss SB2C Helldiver and Yokosuka D4Y "Judy"



Douglas TBD Devastator



Savoia-Marchetti SM.79 Sparviero (Sparrowhawk)



Reggiane Re.2005 Sagittario (Archer)



The U.S., German, and even Soviet aircraft list in the game is somewhat robust.

Ground vehicle-wise ... the Italians could use:

Carro Armato M13/40 (their primary tank troughout the war - a medium)



The Japanese used :

Type 95 Light Tank “Ha-Go”



against the M-3 Stuart (in the Philippines)



And although this never met the Iowa class head-on, scenarios have some leeway on what-if:



All of this beats the P-61, hands down, on worthwhile additions to AHIII. The Black Widow belongs way further down the list.

[MiloMorai]

That be the Yamato not an Iowa.

Great artwork tho.

[Arlo]

"And although this never met the Iowa class head-on ...."

[streakeagle]

Almost none of the aircraft in AH are employed in accordance with their historical missions on a day to day basis in the main arena. P-51s would mainly be found over Europe at altitudes above 20,000 feet escorting massive formations of B-17s and/or B-24s followed by strafing runs on targets of opportunity... with long periods of doing nothing flying back and forth between England and Germany.  It rarely happens in the MA and maybe only a little more frequently in special events.

The P-61 without a radar would be just as fun to fly as a Mosquito, P-38, Bf110, Me410 or any other twin fighter. While the aircraft are modeled reasonably well, AH is far more a game than a sim. The point is to have fun flying various aircraft that you happen to like. I like the P-61 a lot more than many other aircraft in the plane set. From many posts over the many years, I would say a significant number of other people feel the same way. The fact that someone has flown an A-20 solely as an air superiority fighter and has a kill record to be feared confirms that the P-61 could find as good a niche as any other famous/popular plane regardless of whether it is employed per historical mission or not.

AH is a game with a great plane set. But the plane set could be larger and there is nothing but time, money, and the arbitrary whims of HTC keeping the P-61 from becoming a member of that plane set. The fact that Ta152s, Me163s, and Me262s are available defies any arguments about production numbers, time in service, effectiveness, significance, etc. It is simply a matter of HTC deciding where to spend their limited resources. It took a long time for the P-40 to get added. Ultimately, it was one of the aircraft that got upgraded and even improved to the AH2 standards. The new F4F/FM2 is great! Bringing all the old aircraft up to date is a huge chore and was never finished during the time of AH2. But adding new aircraft helps add interest. New models/textures don't really change game play nearly as much as the chance to fly new aircraft. Unfortunately, modern graphics standards have greatly increased the time/effort/money it takes to do a single aircraft type. So AH doesn't upgrade/add aircraft nearly as fast as they once did. New aircraft, whether an He111 or a Brewster Buffalo are always welcome. I would welcome any new aircraft, but would greatly prefer the ones I liked so much that they are hanging from my ceiling after hours of gluing/painting/decaling. The ones I have previously mentioned are the ones I would like to see in no particular order: P-61, PBY, SB2C.

No amount of arguing will change my preferences. I like what I like and ask for what I like. HTC has and will continue doing whatever it wants. Sometimes, what they want and what I want overlap quite a bit as evidences by the overlap between my model collection and the AH plane set. I would be happy to see the overlap eventually reach 100%.

[Krusty]

It's not HTC's "whim" that keeps it from the game. It's some soundly-based common sense, practical application not matching YOUR expectations, and it just not being the right fit for the game. I'm not going to pick apart your post, just know that a lot of what you typed up is based too heavily on your preconceptions and not on real facts. Just one example: P-51s in this game are very much used like P-51s in WW2 were. They were used a LOT of different ways, in different theaters, in different roles, and at different altitudes, from 30k to the deck. P-61s were only used one way. Just one. It was a very limited way and you would find it most un-fun to replicate.