Author Topic: Galland 20mm v MG  (Read 7972 times)

Offline cav58d

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Galland 20mm v MG
« on: July 09, 2017, 09:07:38 AM »
I thought this would be interesting to share.  Unfortunately the current edition being sold on Amazon is from a small time bootleg publisher so it's not worth giving a page number but this comes out of the "following the latest bomb crater chapter" in Gallands "the first and the last".

"The me-109 carries only one 20-mm. cannon and two normal machine guns.  This could by no means be regarded as sufficient in the fight against multienginrd bombers.  This armament, too, constituted an incomprehensible regression in the new me-109F compared with the E series, who's production has stopped the previous year.  The latter had two 20-mm. cannons mounted in the wings and two normal machine guns.  The one cannon of the new me-109F was of course more modern, had a quicker rate of fire, a better trajectory, and what is more was centrally mounted over the engine and fired through he gun of the propeller.  Nevertheless there were conflicting opinions as to whether the new armament should be regarded as a step forward or a step backward.  Molders shared Udets opinion that one centrally mounted cannon was better then two in the wings.  I regarded one cannon as completely inadequate, particularly as I considered machine guns outdated for aerial combat, merely senseless fireworks.  One could hardly impress an enemy fighter with them anymore, to say nothing of multiengined bombers.  Naturally I recognized he advantages of centrally mounted weapons.  But if the armament consisted of one cannon only, then I preferred two decent rap cannons, especially when I thought of the gradually declining standard in skill and training of the majority of or new pilots, which was unavoidable as the war dragged on.  Not every pilot was as good a sharpshooter as Molders or Udet.

This problem of the me-109 armament was also brought to Hitler's notice, how and by whom I do not know.  During a conversation he asked me for my opinion.  Did I consider the better armament for the me-109 a cannon in the central axis or two in the wings?  I did not ponder long: "Better all three."  Hitler was pleased.  My answer corresponded with his ideas.  He used the fact that later development proved him repeatedly correct as an argument in his attempts to put into practice odd ideas of his own in the field of armament and technically, against the advice of experts.

Immediately after this conversation came the order to increase the armament of the me-109F.  Two additional 20-mm. cannons were mounted below the wings.  These "gondolas" or "bathtubs" as we called them, naturally affected the performance of the plane badly.  The aircraft defaced in this was was dad good as useless in fighter combat.  But at least with three cannons she had now a firing power with which one could achieve something in the battle with the Flying Fortress. 

Later on when the fighter escort of the Americans became more and more effective, the "bathtubs" had to be removed again.  The escorting fighters became the primary target.  Shooting down bombers took second place.  Many favorable chances were missed by neglecting to provide stronger armament for our fighters.  Much more suitable was the FW-190 first with two and later with four 20-mm. cannons and two machine guns."

Apologies if there are any mistakes, I am typing this on a cell phone while sitting on the beach.

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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2017, 11:03:40 AM »
Quote
Later on when the fighter escort of the Americans became more and more effective, the "bathtubs" had to be removed again.  The escorting fighters became the primary target.  Shooting down bombers took second place.  Many favorable chances were missed by neglecting to provide stronger armament for our fighters.  Much more suitable was the FW-190 first with two and later with four 20-mm. cannons and two machine guns."

Analysis of WW2 Air Combat Records
http://www.germanluftwaffe.com/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/a/Alliierte/US%20Air%20Combat%20Records%20WW%20II.pdf

Offline Oldman731

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2017, 03:49:24 PM »

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2017, 10:08:23 PM »
The inability to carry a sufficient amount of firepower was the biggest drawback of the 109, while the 30 mm was powerful it was way to hard for the average pilot to hit Another fighter with it. That's why (IMO) the spitfire wins the title "best WW2 fighter", it could both handle the increased weight better than the 109 and also take not just 2 but 4 cannons without losing performance.
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2017, 11:56:17 PM »
The only version to carry 4 cannons during WW2 were some Spit V's - and the definitely could not handle hauling all 4 and were quickly reverted to the standard configuration.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2017, 01:05:40 AM »
So? Late Mk XVI and pretty much all of the final versions had 4 cannons and they could handle it. It doesn't matter that they didn't shot at German planes with them, the point is that the spitfire could carry a sufficient amount of firepower throughout its career.
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Offline FBKampfer

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2017, 09:47:40 AM »
Which is like claiming slapping a couple hundred extra horsepower and a redesigned wing on the damn thing didn't help.

The Spitfire's core airframe was limited in a similar manner to the Bf 109. Had Germany somehow won and occupied the UK, you'd be on the other side talking about how foolish the UK was to experiment with overloading a light fighter, when the lighter armed Bf 109 served the Luftwaffe into the 1950's.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2017, 11:35:24 AM »
But that's not whats happened so the argument is irrelevant. The Germans realized before the war that the 109 lacked firepower and tried in a number of ways to solve the issue, without any good solution. The fact we even have this debate proves it..
They tried to replace the 109 but it didnt worked so they had no option but to keep the 109.
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2017, 02:25:36 PM »
So? Late Mk XVI and pretty much all of the final versions had 4 cannons and they could handle it. It doesn't matter that they didn't shot at German planes with them, the point is that the spitfire could carry a sufficient amount of firepower throughout its career.

The point is that you're comparing a spitfire variant developed 5 years after the 109's being discussed. The contemporary Spitfire of 1941 could not handle 4 cannons.

When the 109F was introduced it was still the best fighter in Europe, with only the Spit V in its league. The single 20mm hub cannon was sufficient for fighter vs. fighter combat for most pilots. Look no further than the rate that Luftwaffe pilots scored kills with 109F.

Galland saw the need for more firepower against the enemy aircraft to come - heavier American bombers and fighters. He was very much correct in this regard and advocated for sole production of FW 190's as Germany's piston-powered fighter while Messerschmitt developed the 262. The man was a visionary to be sure.

Futhermore, many of the Luftwaffe's best pilots did not outfit their aircraft with extra cannon when they were available. Rall and Barkhorn both refused to take gondolas on their 109's. Even on the 190, Nowotny and Priller both favored the lighter 2 cannon loadout. 
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2017, 04:12:30 PM »
So? Late Mk XVI and pretty much all of the final versions had 4 cannons and they could handle it. It doesn't matter that they didn't shot at German planes with them, the point is that the spitfire could carry a sufficient amount of firepower throughout its career.

The Mk XVI was a Mk IX using a Packard Merlin. Are you saying the Mk IX had 4 cannons?

The series 20 Spitfires had a different wing than previous Mks.

Offline Zimme83

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2017, 05:26:29 PM »
The Mk XVI was a Mk IX using a Packard Merlin. Are you saying the Mk IX had 4 cannons?

The series 20 Spitfires had a different wing than previous Mks.
A mx XVI from may -45, the E wing could take 4 cannons:


And the entire topic is about German experts arguing about if the firepower of the F...
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2017, 05:39:01 PM »
A mx XVI from may -45, the E wing could take 4 cannons:
(Image removed from quote.)


4 cannon barrel fairings, but not 4 cannons. Look at the top hatch - only has the cannon fairing on the outboard bay.




Quote
And the entire topic is about German experts arguing about if the firepower of the F...
What's your point?


« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 05:41:20 PM by Devil 505 »
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2017, 05:53:29 PM »
E wing could still carry 4 cannons and point is that we are discussing the 109:s lack of firepower because that is what this thread is all about...
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Offline Karnak

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2017, 06:29:25 PM »
E wing could still carry 4 cannons and point is that we are discussing the 109:s lack of firepower because that is what this thread is all about...
E wing could not carry four 20mm cannons.  It did not have the flexibility of the old universal wing.  That flexibility was eliminated because, in practice, it wasn't used.  The E wing was hard locked to two 20mm cannons and two .50 caliber machine guns.
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: Galland 20mm v MG
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2017, 06:37:39 PM »
It wasnt used no, i guess that they considered 2 cannons to be enough. But the option still existed..
2 cannons is enough to kill fighters, and spitfires did not have to deal with bombers during the later half of the war in any greater scale. If LW have had the ability to bomb England during the later half of the war im sure we had seen more 4 cannon spits in the bomber interceptor role.
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