Author Topic: Airbus in hail storm  (Read 4805 times)

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6974
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2017, 10:36:35 PM »
How is that bullcrap?

Just because you never dinged a plane doesn't mean it could not happen.

You don't know all the data regarding this flight.

I've never hit any hail in 34 years and my dad never hit any hail in 50 years of flying but it doesn't mean it can't happen in certain conditions.

Flying over 3rd world countries can net you less support than you would like and it's possible that not being allowed to overfly borders could have influenced this plane to cut it too close.

Maybe he didn't have 100 miles to work with.

« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 10:45:39 PM by icepac »

Offline nrshida

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8577
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2017, 07:00:33 AM »
Uh oh. Forum argument. They can be harder to avoid that hailstorms.

Meanwhile there is more informattion over here:-

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/07/29/ukrainian-pilot-miraculously-lands-damaged-plane-in-turkey/#arvlbdata

Apparently other aircraft were damaged in flight. Nice landing by the ukrainian pilot, given the state of the windscreen:-



Bet the co-pilot is updating his Facebook status to 'in need of clean shorts'.

"If man were meant to fly, he'd have been given an MS Sidewinder"

Offline ghi

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2669
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2017, 09:54:33 AM »

Bet the co-pilot is updating his Facebook status to 'in need of clean shorts'.
:rofl  texting dweebster
 
Amazing  how the windscreen can take such a damage;

Offline Busher

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2148
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2017, 10:58:34 AM »
How is that bullcrap?

Just because you never dinged a plane doesn't mean it could not happen.

You don't know all the data regarding this flight.

I've never hit any hail in 34 years and my dad never hit any hail in 50 years of flying but it doesn't mean it can't happen in certain conditions.

Flying over 3rd world countries can net you less support than you would like and it's possible that not being allowed to overfly borders could have influenced this plane to cut it too close.

Maybe he didn't have 100 miles to work with.

Thunderstorms don't suddenly jump up and bite you.

You can either fly around them or turn around... but it takes "stones" to tell management that this flight isn't going to arrive at it planned destination.
Being male, an accident of birth. Being a man, a matter of age. Being a gentleman, a matter of choice.

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6974
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2017, 04:46:38 PM »
How much support do you think they get in the ukraine?

Do they receive reports from the ground concerning hail?

Did you know that most reports of hail come from ground observation?

How many observers are there per mile in the more sparsely populated parts of ukraine?

Are you familiar with the overflight restrictions in ukraine that can decrease your ability to maintain safe separation?

Are you familiar with what happens in ukraine when you decide to not fly where you are told?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 04:50:07 PM by icepac »

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2017, 05:11:14 PM »
Just for clarification: the plane encountered the storm on initial climb from Istanbul.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Busher

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2148
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2017, 08:21:17 PM »
How much support do you think they get in the ukraine?

Do they receive reports from the ground concerning hail?

Did you know that most reports of hail come from ground observation?

How many observers are there per mile in the more sparsely populated parts of ukraine?

Are you familiar with the overflight restrictions in ukraine that can decrease your ability to maintain safe separation?

Are you familiar with what happens in ukraine when you decide to not fly where you are told?



All these points and questions are strange to me.
1: In my years of airline flying I never used ground reports to locate hail. Any CB that's contouring on the weather radar could be and likely is producing hail. Don't fly there.

2: Likely true. There are always more people are on the ground than in the cockpit. But airline pilots don't rely on calls from Dispatch to avoid weather.

3: See Answer 2.

4: I have never come across, even in the most track restrictive areas of the world, an air traffic control group that will not accommodate deviations from track do to severe weather. Even if they try to restrict, I ain't flying into the side of that CB.

5: You want to fly with or for an airline where the final decisions for the safety of the airplane and its contents does not rest with the crew in control? If that's the way it is in eastern Europe, I'll take the car thanks.
Being male, an accident of birth. Being a man, a matter of age. Being a gentleman, a matter of choice.

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6757
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2017, 08:47:55 PM »
Just for clarification: the plane encountered the storm on initial climb from Istanbul.

Assuming his wx radar was working, he should have had a very clear indication of solid weather in front of him.  If that was the case, why continue?  In my experience, it was never a problem to hold on the runway, examine the radar return, and exit the runway if the picture wasn't acceptable.

That Captain was there.  I wasn't.  I'm sure glad the photo is of him with a severely trashed aircraft and splaining to someone what happened and WHY.....and not me.



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6974
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2017, 09:23:03 PM »
All these points and questions are strange to me.
1: In my years of airline flying I never used ground reports to locate hail. Any CB that's contouring on the weather radar could be and likely is producing hail. Don't fly there.

2: Likely true. There are always more people are on the ground than in the cockpit. But airline pilots don't rely on calls from Dispatch to avoid weather.

3: See Answer 2.

4: I have never come across, even in the most track restrictive areas of the world, an air traffic control group that will not accommodate deviations from track do to severe weather. Even if they try to restrict, I ain't flying into the side of that CB.

5: You want to fly with or for an airline where the final decisions for the safety of the airplane and its contents does not rest with the crew in control? If that's the way it is in eastern Europe, I'll take the car thanks.

You don't take information directly from the ground but you can be sure that someone at manassas (W10) reporting hail there will make it into information provided by dulles approach.

There is a line of communication from many sources that makes up the information you receive.

You're just not aware of every source that contributes.

Are you aware of airspace restrictions between Istanbul, turkey and Cyprus?

Are you aware of embargo in the area that may restrict where you can overfly?


Offline Serenity

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7313
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2017, 09:35:22 PM »
Assuming his wx radar was working, he should have had a very clear indication of solid weather in front of him.  If that was the case, why continue?  In my experience, it was never a problem to hold on the runway, examine the radar return, and exit the runway if the picture wasn't acceptable.

That Captain was there.  I wasn't.  I'm sure glad the photo is of him with a severely trashed aircraft and splaining to someone what happened and WHY.....and not me.

I think icepac is making an important point here. This is Eastern Europe. NOT the US. Now, I don't have any experience flying over there firsthand, but I feel like it's VERY safe to say things are handled very differently. As in, there are likely very different consequences for diverting from the normal plan, and airspace is likely a LOT more restrictive. Especially with everything going on in that region politically at the moment...

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2017, 10:15:31 PM »
I don't Think they had the time to fly around the storm since they hit it pretty much immediately after take off.
This wasn't the only air Craft damaged by the storm, A Turkish Airlines A321 and a B737 from Pegasus Airlines also suffered damage from the hail storm.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline Busher

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2148
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2017, 10:16:42 PM »
You don't take information directly from the ground but you can be sure that someone at manassas (W10) reporting hail there will make it into information provided by dulles approach.

There is a line of communication from many sources that makes up the information you receive.

You're just not aware of every source that contributes.

Are you aware of airspace restrictions between Istanbul, turkey and Cyprus?

Are you aware of embargo in the area that may restrict where you can overfly?

I am completely confused as to why you seem to think that only ground personnel can safely help an airliner negotiate its way though severe weather. The NWS and the NOAA are only two of the invaluable resources that pilots and dispatchers rely upon to safely navigate around problems. But weather is so dynamic, the ultimate decision assure the safest track around thunderstorms has to be made by the pilots.

That being said, with the weather avoidance tools available aboard a modern airliner like the a320 and the fact it was a departure incident, I have to agree with Puma44. Delay departure.

Oh ... and to your question about airspace restrictions that currently exist in the Bosphorus, I am 8 years retired... so no.
Being male, an accident of birth. Being a man, a matter of age. Being a gentleman, a matter of choice.

Offline Puma44

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6757
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2017, 10:36:15 PM »
I don't Think they had the time to fly around the storm since they hit it pretty much immediately after take off.
This wasn't the only air Craft damaged by the storm, A Turkish Airlines A321 and a B737 from Pegasus Airlines also suffered damage from the hail storm.


Well, taking off into a thunderstorm is a blatant demonstration of poor judgement.  Not to mention unsafe.



All gave some, Some gave all

Offline Zimme83

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3073
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2017, 10:59:08 PM »
i will wait a bit, with so Little information it's too early to hang someone.
''The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge'' - Stephen Hawking

Offline SFRT - Frenchy

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5420
      • http://home.CFL.rr.com/rauns/menu.htm
Re: Airbus in hail storm
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2017, 11:03:40 PM »
All these points and questions are strange to me.


4: I have never come across, even in the most track restrictive areas of the world, an air traffic control group that will not accommodate deviations from track do to severe weather. Even if they try to restrict, I ain't flying into the side of that CB.


 :rofl I can tell u never flew cargo.  :rofl. Bit*^" please comes to mind.
Dat jugs bro.

Terror flieger since 1941.
------------------------