My thoughts on current strat issues. I don't think it's the M3's Fault.

[Flayed1]

 I see all this hubbub over the M3, and while I personally think it might be good to throw a lil perk on it as it is the fastest way to move 10 troops and field sups in most cases and it is nice to see the SKDF, Jeep and goon get more use. The problem I'm seeing, is an almost total lack of use of the troop section of the strat system.  While I do see people hitting factories and city, I don't see anyone hitting much other than dar and ord on a base.  I'm thinking this is due to there being fewer things to have to take down in order to accomplish those goals, where it is a bit more difficult to kill the barracks and most people don't seem to be willing to make the effort to pork. Come to think of it I've seen people crowing about hitting ord, dar, AA and city strats but nothing much on the grunt training.... Hmmm I'll start watching this more as I play...   But in general folks seem to have an aversion to doing the dirty work of porking and when they do it's usually the front line bases and nothing beyond those.
   Part of this issue as I see it is low cooperation between players and I think that is in part due to the lower numbers. The few players that are on any given country are scattered willy nilly trying to attack and defend the front with little left over for much strategic action.  I've also taken note of squad size being down, obviously due to low player #'s as well and with out the unifying bond of a squad I think many players will tend to wander hither and yon and just do what they see the other green dots doing. (Err green planes and tanks now  )
  Prime examples of this is the Birds Of Prey and my brother, Thndreggs 91'st.  I myself having just come back to the game made my own squad name and was flying around doing what ever I felt needed to be done as I had before I left the game 5 years ago. At that time I could afford to do that because many squads were large and some like the BOP's were termed mega squads. I myself was CO of the bomber wing of the BOP's for a while.  In those days we had the opposite problem of forming up and rolling bases with so little effort that it caused quite the outcry. I and Thndr both left the BOP's, I think due, for the most part to this. It became a rinse and repeat game with little challenge. The guys in the squad were all great guys and we had lots of good times together but the tactics got a bit bland I guess.
  Now I come back and jumped onto the old squad channel to say hi and find maybe 1 to 3 guys online if I'm lucky.  The 91st faces a similar issue. When Thndr left I believe they pretty well disbanded and now that they are trying to reform, they are having some issue getting recruits.  Hard to be the strat porking force they were without the man power to do it. Hopefully they will once again become the "Meat Grinder" that they were known to be years ago.
  After receiving an invite, I thought it over and have rejoined the Birds Of Prey. Sorry Zener, I know you wanted me to be part of the meat grinding crew of the 91'st but the Bops were my AH family for many years and I'm hoping I can help get them back up to strength.    
 I was never much of a recruiter and really didn't post many public missions (Thndr is more the commander, I was always more of the strategist)  but I'm going to try and do my part and get some cohesiveness back into the game with some public mission postings.   So look to the sky's for a porking mission near you!   
  Anyway sorry if I got to rambling on down memory lane (I am getting old and turning 40 this year, oh my)  lol    but I just felt the need to post my assessment of the issues as I see them at the moment...  So again I don't think it's really the M3 that's the problem but more of a player #'s problem in general and a lack of unification of those players on any given country.   With that said I was wondering if maybe there may just need to be an adjustment in the amount that field sups repair things to make the easy resup game a bit more difficult until either player #'s come up or we can get the porking game going again?   Now please don't jump all over me lol, I'm just throwing out a thought and will be fine with things as they are if there is no change and I welcome civilized discussion.   So am I off base on my observations or what?
 
  See you in the air or on the ground as the case may be. 

[Lazerr]

So if i want to log in for 30 minutes to try and take a base.. i better hope someone hit strats first?  Because obviously 30 minutes isnt enough time to fly to strats, and then be able to play the game i enjoy.

Just seeking clarification.

[lunatic1]

there are only 3 maybe 4 strats worth hitting--Ammo-AAA-Radar-City.
now the city strat is the toughest, set up in 2 sections--buildings double hardened. and it's only worth hitting strats if your countrymen pork the bases.. hitting Fuel strats and Troop strats are worthless unless your perk farming or working on achievements.
we have 10 maps to play on, only 3 or 4 can be reached by M3. and the knights only have 1 or 2 players willing to resup strats. I was was resuping strats on certain maps, but got tired of it because the enemy's dedicated bomber pilots set there and watch the strats when they start coming up and go bomb them again

under the Thread M3 effectiveness the fighter pilots want to get rid of M3 resupply. so this just may become mute issue since the whine'ing horde usually get their way anyway.

[Flayed1]

 Well obviously not Lazerr, and that's why I made the suggestion at the end. I know not everyone has the time to pork things but to say things that have been a part of the game since the beginning should be removed seems wrong to me.  We just have to find that happy medium place. Always seems like people want to go way to one side or the other on issues like this.
  And Lunatic I know Fuel strats are worthless, have been for years but I don't think it's worthless to hit troop strats but like you said it's only worth it if people kill the strats on bases as well, hence my observations about player #'s cooperation and squads as well as my thoughts on perking the M3 instead of removing it and adjusting the amount of repair the sups do. But Hitech may be ahead of me on this so I guess I'll wait and see what the grand master comes up with. Always fun to adapt and overcome.    
 
With that being said I just got back from the Doctor and have a couple sick days to play with so I think I'll go pork something lol.   .

 

[thndregg]

The equation does work. Grunt Training strat--> impacting downtime base barracks-->impacting vehicle/base/strat object resupply and the ability to deploy troops into the map room.

In AH2, there were times we had that particular strat beat down so badly, and strings of bases barracks porked, the enemy either was forced into resupply mode, or they simply started gaggle-fighting the other chess piece.

[zack1234]

Steam will bring in new blood and ghe game will change

[Lusche]

The barracks are a fine example how even supposedly small changes can affect the gameplay as a whole.
In AH2, barracks had been porked frequently - but only on Vehicle Bases. Because other than on airfields, barracks could easily been porked on VBases by a single bomber flyover (W-E) and were simply to pork in a fighter as well. So as porking happened a lot, bombing the troop 'factory', while not being a priority, made a lot of sense.

Today, hitting the training grounds is more like an excercise in increasing your bomber damage points, often in milk mode because it's nearby. Simply because on the new Vehicle Base the barracks can't be porked in a single pass anymore, which is the only reason I can imagine why it almost never happens anymore.
Just a slight change to field layout apparently caused it.

[JunkyII]

Reason you see Ord and Radar being hit at a base over anything else is being it's just easier.

You have pros and cons, hit the Ord and it becomes much harder for the enemy to kill your tanks and town. Kill the troops and it's impossible to bring them from that location, but troop barracks are harder to take down at a field.

That's defensively speaking....Offense you have to kill the troops at the next base to stop the resupply of that field, which takes longer then resupply itself. There isn't an issue specifically with the M3....its how that field supply loadout can effect the fight...often times removing it and creating fronts of ZERO combat.

I don't know why HTC removed the troops for M3s but I wouldnt be surprised if he is looking at how much the usage of them go down to see how often they are actually being used for resupply instead of taking a field.

[Zener]

After receiving an invite, I thought it over and have rejoined the Birds Of Prey. Sorry Zener, I know you wanted me to be part of the meat grinding crew of the 91'st but the Bops were my AH family for many years and I'm hoping I can help get them back up to strength.  

Flayed1 I began my AH days as a BOP in that same bombing wing, so I don't ever view anyone joining the BOPs as something that needs apologizing for.  Just don't leave empty beer cans in ThunderEGGs bomber on our squad night because 1. He gets so upset it makes him crash into hills, and 2. He makes the new guys clean up after you, and they ain't liking it.   

All the best with the Birds.  See you in the air! <S>

[Zener]

To be honest, Flayed1, this has been my observation as regards strats and resupply since my return to AH:

Players tend to either understand it fully or not at all.  I mean everyone seems to understand that damage to a factory will keep things down longer, but some operate under misconceptions that aren't accurate.  They think, for example, that you can resupp towns from their own AF.  They do damage at a radar factory and ask how come the radar down time at X base didn't suddenly increase.  There's quite a bit of that kind of misunderstanding that I run into now and then.

Part of this, IMHO, stems from a lot of changes in the game without also updating the wiki or help files in a way that simply and clearly describes how things work.  I know, I know, don't go making statements like that if I'm not willing to help and don't expect someone else to do it for me.  I wish I had that kinda time; I would.  Best I can do right now is to help answer the questions in game when they come up.

I think we will see a more concerted effort to pork bases in concert with strat factory damage once enough guys try it and reap the benefits of it.  I agree with Snailman, we generally only see it anymore at V-bases and rarely do we see troops porked at airfields anymore.  I can remember many a time (as a BOP, btw) that Falc would dispatch us in groups of 3 or 4 to surrounding bases for pork-ops.  It DOES work, but not many care to do it any more.  Same can be said for "prepping" support fields prior to attacking a field with the intention to take it.  You don't have to worry about M3s resupping town if the VH at the support base is dead. 

On a good note, though, I do see these lessons being passed on by the "old hands" to the newer players.  I suspect it will just take time for their experience level to grow and some one will try the "pork first" approach and have success.  After that, it will become more routine.

   

[ccvi]

Just a slight change to field layout apparently caused it.

Slight? You make it sound like that was just a deliberate tiny change to make things look more interesting or whatever the reason may have been. I don't want to believe that. Just imagine what it simply being a change for no game-play reason or at least not considering game-play would imply.

[ccvi]

I don't know why HTC removed the troops for M3s but I wouldnt be surprised if he is looking at how much the usage of them go down to see how often they are actually being used for resupply instead of taking a field.

I would be surprised if the server didn't know what we take off with. It's probably deeper, like number of spawns with troops / number of captures or something like that. There's probably not enough data for the 251 or goon to compare it with the m3.

[The Fugitive]

To be honest, Flayed1, this has been my observation as regards strats and resupply since my return to AH:

Players tend to either understand it fully or not at all.  I mean everyone seems to understand that damage to a factory will keep things down longer, but some operate under misconceptions that aren't accurate.  They think, for example, that you can resupp towns from their own AF.  They do damage at a radar factory and ask how come the radar down time at X base didn't suddenly increase.  There's quite a bit of that kind of misunderstanding that I run into now and then.

Part of this, IMHO, stems from a lot of changes in the game without also updating the wiki or help files in a way that simply and clearly describes how things work.  I know, I know, don't go making statements like that if I'm not willing to help and don't expect someone else to do it for me.  I wish I had that kinda time; I would.  Best I can do right now is to help answer the questions in game when they come up.

I think we will see a more concerted effort to pork bases in concert with strat factory damage once enough guys try it and reap the benefits of it.  I agree with Snailman, we generally only see it anymore at V-bases and rarely do we see troops porked at airfields anymore.  I can remember many a time (as a BOP, btw) that Falc would dispatch us in groups of 3 or 4 to surrounding bases for pork-ops.  It DOES work, but not many care to do it any more.  Same can be said for "prepping" support fields prior to attacking a field with the intention to take it.  You don't have to worry about M3s resupping town if the VH at the support base is dead. 

On a good note, though, I do see these lessons being passed on by the "old hands" to the newer players.  I suspect it will just take time for their experience level to grow and some one will try the "pork first" approach and have success.  After that, it will become more routine.

 

This most likely the crux of the problem right here.

Now Im not saying anyone is playing the game the wrong way or anything but if you have 20-30 players looking to resupply, hit strat, pork bases you have a third of the players avoiding contact/combat. Granted the numbers are coming up these days  (WooHOO!!!) but in a low number situation (think Euro prime time) You could have half the players avoiding contact, and the rest split along the fronts. Heaven forbid two team fight only each other and ignore the third team.

This is where the problem comes in. With low numbers the issues become highlighted. With better numbers..... which we seem to be moving towards, these issues wont seem like the problems they appear to be now. We will still have those that prefer to hit strats, those that like to pork and run, and those that think they can help better by resupplying, but with more numbers will come more combat/interaction of other players.

Personally I know how strats work, and how to use them but I dont care to be bother with it any more. Years ago it was an important part of the game. Now I just want battles. It really isnt much of a battle to get to the starts and wipe them out. Good planning and routes and taking the time to execute isnt that much of a battle to me any more, but I dont think other shouldn't try it if that is what they think is fun.

"Fixing" the game is only going to be accomplished by getting more people into the game. Do your part and help spread the word. Check out and contribute to the Flight City Radio and quick share wont hurt. If you want to post snippets that's great! Quotes from players, text from the text buffer, system messages, its all good! "Report" what fun we are having in the game!

All we need is players, go get them!   

[pembquist]

It is much more difficult to kill the barracks at V bases now. They are spread out a little more and there are more man guns and it seems (its my impression but could be wrong) that they are used more frequently and by players who are pretty good in them. At the same time resupply is much more part of the game now.

[Flayed1]

 Thanks for the replies all.  And yes I agree that player #'s are the big problem, with fewer players it is hard to have enough people to do all that needs to be done (from the war winners perspective) to be really effective. And yes to all you Hair err Furball types as you might have guessed I love the strategic game but please don't assume that I am avoiding a fight. Yes its true that I attempt to make it to strats without being intercepted, after all in that scenario it's my job to deliver my bombs to target and not to hunt your puny lil fighters with my lovely big birds of death (not that I haven't tried that over the years  ). How ever I always find it much more interesting when I have that "Awww crap" moment when a dar bar pops up and soon enough a con. In fact would one of you please disable Zoneys 152? I'll pay you in cheese.    
 Like I said I would, I did a lil testing by myself and took troops down to 61% and then began my efforts to pork troops at a couple of, what I considered to be key bases. They were both small fields, one spawning to a contested field and the second the only GV spawn to the first.  On the first one I had my trusty B-26's at a nice 13K and did a perfect run across the north side of the base taking down all 3 Barracks with 500's lost 2 planes due to you pesky lil fighter guys but got 2 kills in return. I then turned around and nailed the 2 barracks on the south side, making it home to land the scalps. 
  So far so good, however I utterly failed on the second base, missing 2 barracks on the first pass, though I did hit 3 others but lost my flight to fighters in the process and it doesn't help when you have a perfect calibration and are lined up on one you missed when your right engine runs out of oil Grrrrr.      By the time I got up in a N1K to finish off the last 2, someone realized that the troops on the first base were down, hampering their efforts to take the contested base and resuped it in no time. So it was down maybe 20 or 30 Min. out of the 70 or so that my factory porking caused. 
  Later that day Thndr porked the troop factory down to 64% and I porked the troops on a base spawning to another Bish were trying to take. 17's with 1000nd pounders made this much easier with better splash damage but again lost 2 planes to fighter cover and the last to a perfectly placed, pilot killing puffy ack shot lol. I had to come back in a 9T and gun the last one down but in the end, having no sups to fix their ord with on the contested base, I think allowed for us to take it almost totally with GV's.

  So my conclusion remains the same really. Player #'s being down obviously is the main factor with player cooperation being next when it comes to the strat/war winning side of things.
 So again really I think the repair time of field sups just needs a lil tweak to make the repair efforts of the GV guys playing the strat game more on the level of the time it takes those few guys playing the porking strat game while the #'s are low. When player #'s were high we needed fast repair times with field sups due to the amount of players hitting a base. Really just a balancing issue and nothing more,  a time setting that is a hold over from the horde days that need a slight tweak. I also wonder if HT could implement a variable on repair time amount of field sups linked to player #'s in the arena, that way it would somewhat auto correct maybe?   Again I also wouldn't mind seeing a perk on the M3. It's kinda like a sports car, you gotta pay for the speed.    
  Now mind you I am not at all for getting rid of sups in any way but I can agree they need a lil adjustment.

 Now all you Fighter Jock furballers may have at me for my strat/war winning ways but just remember...  Cannons and guns may ruin my fun but words will never hurt me!   

  all and see you in the air or on the ground as the case may be.