FSO The Daily Grind June 1943 Frame #2

[BTPage]

*** Mild Lang "Ear Muff maybe required"***

This was Friday Oct 13 Frame 2 FSO. This was a fun one. Hope you ladies / gents enjoy it! <S>



Link to youtube: https://youtu.be/5IJHxyAkwzA

 

ULTactus

[Brooke]

Cool, thanks for posting!

Come on in for the upcoming "Target Rabaul" scenario (starts Oct. 28th) and make us some more cool videos of the action!   

Here's the link to more info and registration:

http://www.ahevents.net/index.php/events/scenarios/current-or-next-scenario

[Odee]

So there is the 109G-6 in The Grind, but no P47D-25 which was there historically. 

 Just cannot miss all the loving that the Axis is getting the past years worth of FSO.

[Devil 505]

Odee, this FSO takes place in June 1943. The D-25 was not in service until May 1944.

[Hajo]

Odee, this FSO takes place in June 1943. The D-25 was not in service until May 1944.

But the D22 and 23 were in service and came with paddle props.  Curtiss and Hamilton Standard props that were 13 feet.  Enabled them to climb over 400 feet per min. faster while the D11 I assume is in this event has the standard thin blade.  This is why that one side or another can get an advantage by saying we don't have your model in game.  But they were in service.  Substituting generally sucks.  The D20 was also in service.  It had a paddle prop.  There are many models of P47s that are not in game.  Each following model was an improvement over the previous one.  In Bodies book all manufacturing numbers for the RAFs' D22 were 42-25639 to 42-26236. Many more D22s' made for the USAAF were made in Evansville and Farmingdale.
We already have 5 models of the 47 in game.  That's enough.
It's a shame that we have to substitute.                                               

[Devil 505]

Hajo, according to a 56th FG history page the paddle props were not entering service until December '43 - six months after the time frame of this FSO.
http://www.56thfightergroup.co.uk/history.htm

I agree in general that a hole exists in the Jug lineup that a D-22 or D-23 could fill, just not in this case.

[Hajo]

Hajo, according to a 56th FG history page the paddle props were not entering service until December '43 - six months after the time frame of this FSO.
http://www.56thfightergroup.co.uk/history.htm

I agree in general that a hole exists in the Jug lineup that a D-22 or D-23 could fill, just not in this case.

I agree.  However the best book about P47s is The Republic P47 Thunderbolt by Warren Brodie.  You'll notice the D20, D22 and D23 serial numbers start with 42.
I have an extensive library on the 56th FG.  Books by Robt. Johnson (First Edition, autographed by him) Gabreski,  Zemke, and Kerbys' Thunderbolts.
Over all though Bodies book is the best giving production numbers, dates and contract numbers and where they were produced.

Coincidentally paddle props were retrofitted in the field to D11s when available.  As I recall (memory lousy) the aircraft that Gabreski scored most of his kills was a D11 that was fitted with a paddle prop.

So in scenarios we gents that like to use the P47, always seem to get short changed in the model that is chosen.  We just don't seem to have the best available model that was flying at the historical time of the event.

[Nefarious]

Is there any source for a definitive date of when the first D-20, D-22, and D-23 first flew combat sorties in any theater?

Since Odees original post in the FSO forum, I did a little looking but didn't really see any dates for those particular numbers.

The differences in the models is interesting and curious as to know when they started seeing service individually. All the different options would be neat to have in AH3, but for development reasons, if the D-11 had more options like the D-20, D-22, and D-23 then the CM's could limit certain fuel tanks and ords to make them look like earlier variants if needed.

<S>

[Hajo]

Nef........I can't find anything yet and I am still looking.  The first number of the serial usually designates the year in which it was built.  In this case the D20, 22, and 23 were built in 42.

I'm still looking for definitive info on when they entered service. will find it I have enough books on the subject.  One of the problems I am having is that some older D models such as the 5 and the D11 soldiered on until the end of the war unless declared War Weary.  The P47s' loss rate was minuscule in comparison to other allied fighters. Even though they bombed and strafed.


Nice discussion about the comparison between P47, P38 and P51.

http://www.kbismarck.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3024

[Devil 505]

The first number of the serial usually designates the year in which it was built.  In this case the D20, 22, and 23 were built in 42.

I doubt that is the case. The D-25-RE serial# range is from 42-26389 through 42-26773 yet none reached front line units until May of 1944.

[Nefarious]

I understand that Osprey books aren't the greatest source, but I'm browsing though my copy of P-47 Thunderbolt Aces of the Eighth Air Force and find no conclusive evidence that the P-47Ds in June 1943 were even D-11s. Most seem to be C models, and D-1's through D-6's.

Numerous photo captions in the book clearly state the serials and models along with the approximate date the photo was taken. The progression of photos seem to indicate that even the higher dash 20, 22 and 23s came in early to mid 1944. D-6s through D-15s seem to be the major P-47 in early 1944.

I'm not aware of the performance differences between the propellers, but it seems that using D-25s in anything less than early-mid 1944 setup would be stretching it historically. I think the solution is a later model razorback P-47D variant, that special event designers can edit the weapons and external fuel load outs to represent earlier model P-47Ds.

[Hajo]

Nef I do agree.  I have that book also and have come up with the same conclusion and wonder why if they were contracted in 42 why did some not see action, unless it was late 1942.

Nef in Bodies book the paddle prop enabled the P47 to climb 400ft/min better then without one.  That's why they retrofitted them.  I am guessing since it could climb better
that would also increase its' speed somewhat.  Simple physics.  It could grab more air.

There were many many different models of the P47.  From Bs to Cs to a few Gs and the most manufactured was the D Model, all having  different models which meant upgrades.

I don't know how or even if adding P47 models to the game could be done.  We have late war models the M and the N (last type manufactured).  Not many Ms' were produced.

Cs' and D models were prevalent of the models of Jugs flying with the USAAF and many other countries during the war.  D Models alone were, The D1, D2,D4, D5,D6, D10, D11 ,D15,
D16, D20 D21, D22, D23, D25, D26 ,D27, D28, D30 and D40.  This list is from Bodies Book who is considered the authority on this matter.  The pictures are great and the complete story of the Jug
is fantastic.  All these models had slight to moderate upgrades to the previous model. Some being very important.  I'm thinking with this number of models, we in this game have gaps in the P47 lineage.  We don't need all of these for sure, but a few more to fill the timeline gaps would be nice.  Retrofitting the D11 with a paddle prop would be nice.  It was done at the airbases as well
as at the production lines.  As I said Gabreskis' D11 was retrofitted at the 56th.  I don't think we can do the Hot Rod Souped up models such as Robert Johnson's Jug.  Few and far between.

The Jug was manufactured in numbers more then any US Fighter.  It's total production was almost equal to the B24.  And it wasn't cheap to produce.  It's engineering and durability and reliability
made it that important.  To carry 8 .50 cals, 2500#s of ord not counting 10 rkts made it the best jack of all trades.

[Nefarious]

Nef I do agree.  I have that book also and have come up with the same conclusion and wonder why if they were contracted in 42 why did some not see action, unless it was late 1942.

It may be as simple as the Department of Defense ordered X amount of P-47s in 1942 and Republic reserved so many serials for those aircraft in 1942, knowing full well it would take them years to deliver all those aircraft. As factory improvements were made like the paddle prop, external hardpoints, bubble top canopy, the only thing that changed was the variant number. The serials didn't change, just the variant dash number.

I don't know of one CM that we've ever had who is an accredited historian/certified expert, I do know that we have some people who are eager to create special events using as much knowledge as they have on certain subjects and also able to get their hands on. I would have let this thread rest but insulting the people who spend there free time creating and hosting special events is when I get defensive about it.

sincerely,

the lackwit semi-historians

[Hajo]

The creators and CMs who design and actually arbitrate our scenarios do a great job.  It is highly appreciated by me.  It's usually a thankless job and that is a shame.

For me in scenarios I just pick an aircraft and virtually fly it.  Heck, I'm using the B25 strafer in the next scenario just for fun.  Should be a hoot!  I usually virtually fly a fighter.

This should be a nice change of pace.