FSO Questions

[deltashotgun]

As a member of the 49er's, I have been flying in FSO regularly for a bit over a year. I know ... newbie and all that. That aside, here are my questions.
The FSO theater is structured to be as realistic as possible, given the terrains, aircraft of the period, etc. So why is it that our radar is on a 5 minute delay? In WWII, both sides had radar of some fashion permitting the opposition to "see" incoming aircraft direction and limited altitude, thus allowing the defenders to know exactly when the attack would occur, from where, altitude, speed and possible target(s). Defenders could then scramble to meet the raid and it's escorts instead of the current "cover the map and hope to find them before they hit the targets". Two out of the last three FSO's I engaged zero bombers and was jumped by decoy fighters instead. Its very frustrating to say the least after flying for over an hour only to be bounced by overwhelming fighters.  How about the radars become active radars, the defender CIC can act as the controller if needed, and defenders would then be able to scramble (without heavy drop tanks), and meet the attackers and their escorts for a realistic, at altitude, fight? Attacking escorts would then have to plan, in advance, a realistic defense against what they know will be a large force of enemy aircraft. In addition, bombers pilots should get ONE bomber, not three, thus ONE life like the rest of us. This would, in my opinion, force bomber pilots to learn to fly defensive formations for mutual protections, escorts to actually plan a defense, and attacking aircraft (defenders) would be required to plan to attack head-on, flanking, from altitude out of the sun, or in separate waves. In warfare, defenders usually had the advantage. So many possibilities and so much more realism and fun. Everyone gets in on the action and the bombers must try to fight their way to the target and home, with or without escorts.

Just my thoughts, from a pilot tired of floundering all over the map looking for something I might never find or have time to reach.
49Topper

[KCDitto]

"So why is it that our radar is on a 5 minute delay?"

So radar operator sees blip

radar operator winds up phone

operator reports contacts

Radio operator asks for conformation

Radar operator confirms

Radio operator contacts command radio operator

command operator asks for conformation

radio operator confirms

command operator notifies officer in charge

officer in charge asks for conformation from other radar stations

OIC then allows command operator to notify airfield radio operator

airfield operator is taking a dump

assistant writes down message  then spills coffee

airfield operator comes back and sees coffee and uses message to wipe up coffee

notices message

airfield operator then reports to squadron location direction and altitude from 5 minutes ago


That explain it?

 


 

[Spikes]

What setup are you referring to that has 5 minute delay? The most recent setup did not have dar bar, and most setups usually do not (sometimes it is there in the late war USAAF bombing campaign setups). Even in setups that have dar bar, if it is set with a delay (as it usually is for gameplay reasons) it isn't all too helpful since that 5 minute delay can give large windows of jumping around between sectors.

Considering bombers usually make up a small part of the attacking force, it is reasonable that you may not see, or get to attack bombers.

In the most recent setup (Daily Grind), the Axis didn't have to take drop tanks at all. Both the 109 and 190 have plenty of internal fuel. Also, bombers are generally sitting ducks and it is relatively hard to balance them within the event. For example, usually they have some sort of alt cap because the B-17 for example performs great at 30K+, where many of the fighters involved in the same setup start to fall off performance wise past 30K.

[DubiousKB]

In the most recent setup (Daily Grind), the Axis didn't have to take drop tanks at all. Both the 109 and 190 have plenty of internal fuel. Also, bombers are generally sitting ducks and it is relatively hard to balance them within the event. For example, usually they have some sort of alt cap because the B-17 for example performs great at 30K+, where many of the fighters involved in the same setup start to fall off performance wise past 30K.

HTC help us all if the poor axis don't get to slaughter bombers. . .

FSO in a nutshell:

Axis get's orders -> known target to defend -> scramble fighters! -> climb. -> send a brave scout or two out -> climb more. -> get the call on country wide text channel instantly as to where the bombers are  -> Vector all defence to bombers and slaughter-pounce from well above bombers "altitude restriction" -> brag that axis "won".

Only when FSO has split objectives is it even close to "fair".  Both sides need to have an attack objective lest it becomes a rule-generated slaughter. . .

[LilMak]

Defense is the easiest mission in FSO. With or without any kind of radar. You know what the enemy is attacking. You know where the enemy is coming from. You know what he time has to arrive. You also know about what altitude they’ll be attacking. You know what aircraft you’ll be facing.

In the ETO setups like this month. The Axis have an overall fighter number advantage over the Allies. The only advantage the Allies had this month was target selection in that we could choose between two of three targets. Even that was narrowed down in that those targets were usually clustered in the same area so reactions by the Germans could be relatively quick.

I get what you’re saying about interceptions and scrambles but all the information you need is presented to you before the gear is retracted. If radar were really to get involved, simply take away the knowledge of which targets are going to be attacked. That way defenders have to go out to meet the enemy somewhere to have any hope of defending an unknown target. They can’t just wait for the bombers to show up. The defenders would have to decide how many aircraft to commit, where to bounce, and risk failing in defense if they hold too many aircraft in reserve.

[perdue3]

HTC help us all if the poor axis don't get to slaughter bombers. . .

FSO in a nutshell:

Axis get's orders -> known target to defend -> scramble fighters! -> climb. -> send a brave scout or two out -> climb more. -> get the call on country wide text channel instantly as to where the bombers are  -> Vector all defence to bombers and slaughter-pounce from well above bombers "altitude restriction" -> brag that axis "won".

Only when FSO has split objectives is it even close to "fair".  Both sides need to have an attack objective lest it becomes a rule-generated slaughter. . .

I thought the Allies did really well in Frame 3 this month. It was difficult for us to effectively kill the bombers while keeping escorts busy. That aside, you are correct, we generally annihilate the Allies.

[branch37]

We used to not have radar at all, and it worked just fine. Do you seriously need it to be easier to find and kill bombers?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dantoo]

If you look at APDrone's film you will see that only 4 of all those B17s from the third frame made it back to England.

It's hard enough to get people to fly bombers on any given weekend.  Making it harder than it already just isn't going to be productive.

Radar is a rarity in FSO.  Did you mean flashing bases?
Both sides fly a majority of fighters just about every frame.  If you get a fighter, then most likely you will end up fighting against fighters.  If you get a bomber you will most certainly get "jumped" by fighters.

You know this is what makes it enjoyable right?

[RufusLeaking]

So why is it that our radar is on a 5 minute delay?

The rationale is not clear. Fog of war? Historically, the percentage of successful intercepts during the Battle of Britain was 31% (Dunnigan, James F. Dirty Little Secrets of World War II. Quill Publishing, 1994.)

Two out of the last three FSO's I engaged zero bombers and was jumped by decoy fighters instead. Its very frustrating to say the least after flying for over an hour only to be bounced by overwhelming fighters.

The infamous "cloud o' 109s." I chalk that up to the number of luft-wanna-be's in the game. This last frame seemed more balanced that most, though.

In addition, bombers pilots should get ONE bomber, not three, thus ONE life like the rest of us.

Big thumbs down on this one. A single ship would likely result in more bizarre, gamey maneuvers.


I feel the OP's pain. FSO is still the best experience on Aces High. Historical plane match-ups. True missions. Disciplined cooperation, or what passes for it.

Remember that this is just a game. Played by amateurs. Volunteers. A good percentage of them... under the influence. Finding the target is an achievement.

The time constraint, T+60, and infinite range air to air communications also make it "gamey."

Historical circumstances are impossible to recreate in a two hour game. How to great the Marianas Turkey Shoot, or Bodenplatte? Both of which were deeply influenced by the Axis deficiency in pilot training late in the war. Shall we put only newbies on the Axis side?

Personally, I enjoy the rush of the launch, the clouds of planes, the banter, the cussing as I go down in flames.

[Spikes]

HTC help us all if the poor axis don't get to slaughter bombers. . .

FSO in a nutshell:

Axis get's orders -> known target to defend -> scramble fighters! -> climb. -> send a brave scout or two out -> climb more. -> get the call on country wide text channel instantly as to where the bombers are  -> Vector all defence to bombers and slaughter-pounce from well above bombers "altitude restriction" -> brag that axis "won".

Only when FSO has split objectives is it even close to "fair".  Both sides need to have an attack objective lest it becomes a rule-generated slaughter. . .

The problem with split objectives and Mid to Late war ETO is that there are no viable solutions for Axis bombers. The Allies bombers kept getting better and better as the war progressed, however as it progressed, the Axis instead had to produce interceptor fighters to combat said Allied bombers. So to have a split objective setup in say, 1944, you either pit the 1942 Ju88 up against Late War Allied planes, or pit the Ar234 up against the same planes. There is no middle ground.

Defense is the easiest mission in FSO. With or without any kind of radar. You know what the enemy is attacking. You know where the enemy is coming from. You know what he time has to arrive. You also know about what altitude they’ll be attacking. You know what aircraft you’ll be facing.

In the ETO setups like this month. The Axis have an overall fighter number advantage over the Allies. The only advantage the Allies had this month was target selection in that we could choose between two of three targets. Even that was narrowed down in that those targets were usually clustered in the same area so reactions by the Germans could be relatively quick.

In Frames 1 and 3 the bombers obliterated all of the targets they intended to hit. I don't really understand how you can have an event that doesn't have any sort of defense. Whether one side is defending or each side has to defend, you will always know where they come from, what they are flying, what they have to hit. The whole point is to promote combat. Would you rather all 200 of the FSO players fly Allied and we have no Axis side?

I believe that the attack/defense setups are fine, they just need careful consideration and reasonable rules and objectives. The fact that the bombers hit all targets in 2 frames and didn't make it through in Frame 2 means that the event was quite balanced and it comes down to CiC planning and execution.

[Vulcan]

Dear 49Topper, I'm happy to volunteer my services to bring you a more realistic FSO. I will bring along my own Lee Enfield 303 and a can of CRC 556, please bring your own goggles and bandages.

[Dantoo]

What are you planning to do with the lube?

[BTPage]

Defense is the easiest mission in FSO. With or without any kind of radar. You know what the enemy is attacking. You know where the enemy is coming from. You know what he time has to arrive. You also know about what altitude they’ll be attacking. You know what aircraft you’ll be facing.

In the ETO setups like this month. The Axis have an overall fighter number advantage over the Allies. The only advantage the Allies had this month was target selection in that we could choose between two of three targets. Even that was narrowed down in that those targets were usually clustered in the same area so reactions by the Germans could be relatively quick.

I get what you’re saying about interceptions and scrambles but all the information you need is presented to you before the gear is retracted. If radar were really to get involved, simply take away the knowledge of which targets are going to be attacked. That way defenders have to go out to meet the enemy somewhere to have any hope of defending an unknown target. They can’t just wait for the bombers to show up. The defenders would have to decide how many aircraft to commit, where to bounce, and risk failing in defense if they hold too many aircraft in reserve.

Well put Lilmak I agree with you 100% <S>

ULTactus

[Squire]

There were a lot of different radar setups in WW2. The different settings are meant to impart some sense of realism. A/C did not have digital data to instantly update them on the radar picture.

[Squire]

The time constraint, T+60, and infinite range air to air communications also make it "gamey."

What would be gamey if the bombers came in at T+75 after the defenders all have to land for fuel. Should we play a 16 hour frame for an 8th AF FSO? We cannot sit in front of our computers until dawn playing FSO. Any "game" has a start time and an end time. We have 2 hrs to do our setup. We try as we might to get it as "WW2 air combat" possible as we can.

US military sim wargames, board wargames, PC games, any and all "simulations" by design must come with some sort of restrictions. There is no such thing as them not.

Historical circumstances are impossible to recreate in a two hour game

Not true at all. There are all kinds of historical circumstances that we put into the designs...your saying because its not 100 percent accurate that its badly flawed somehow