Author Topic: The M3 experiment is over.  (Read 18738 times)

Offline Wiley

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2017, 12:10:44 PM »
Oh I forgot, silly me.

In the mean time the base is captured. The Horde wins again. No thank you. :bhead

While you're correct if you happen to log on and they're mid-capture, in my experience if you pay attention you can see them lift and head for the next field they're hording, and that usually gives you enough time to get there to have an impact on the fight.

For some reason many people don't look at what the enemy is doing beyond looking at your own fields to see which ones are flashing.  Most base take attempts are telegraphed for 5-10 minutes before they move into friendly airspace.  Even when it's called out on channel people don't react until it's in their dar.  Then they wonder why the enemy is higher than them when they lifted from the field to attempt to defend.

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Online Devil 505

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2017, 12:11:36 PM »
Genuinely curious, what precisely have you been vindicated on?  We now know that about 2/3 of M3 sorties were running supplies.  That means they likely accounted for around 22% (give or take) of total GV sorties over the course of the month.

This tells me that 1 in 5 GVers is engaged in non-combat activities. That's significant.
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Offline Lazerr

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2017, 12:12:12 PM »
Genuinely curious, what precisely have you been vindicated on?  We now know that about 2/3 of M3 sorties were running supplies.  That means they likely accounted for around 22% (give or take) of total GV sorties over the course of the month.

What exactly does that do to support your point that M3 resupply is bad for the game, and how exactly does it recommend the Snail's idea?

All I get out of it is, "Yup.  The M3 sure does get used a lot.  So does the T34."

Wiley.

What i get out of it, is the gameboard needs to appear to have action to attract new players.. and at this rate keep its current ones.  You arent going to get folks to pay 15 bucks monthly without some intense action.

Resupplying a base is.. well... not action

Offline wil3ur

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2017, 12:14:47 PM »
This tells me that 1 in 5 GVers is engaged in non-combat activities. That's significant.

You're assuming they're running supplies and not running anti-tank loadouts!   :old:
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Offline Lusche

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2017, 12:20:53 PM »
You're assuming they're running supplies and not running anti-tank loadouts!   :old:

Which he is safe to assume. M3s sporting the howitzer  loadout are very rare. Even a couple of hundred sorties per tour would surpise me a lot.
It's a different thing with M3s carrying GV supplies, though I see mostly Jeeps in that role these days.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2017, 12:23:53 PM »
This tells me that 1 in 5 GVers is engaged in non-combat activities. That's significant.

It is, but what is the acceptable range?  We've got a number in a vacuum.  None of us have the data to say what percentages things were at in the good old days when things were supposedly awesome.  For all we know, it used to be 1 in 6, or 1 in 4.

But people are sure drawing conclusions from it based on their own opinions.

And what I REALLY don't understand is how slowing down resupply by moving it to the SDK is going to accomplish anything other than having people either spend more time, or get more people in resupply vehicles to achieve the same effect, or simply not bothering because once the horde is there, they just move on to the next base.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2017, 12:38:52 PM »
And what I REALLY don't understand is how slowing down resupply by moving it to the SDK is going to accomplish anything other than having people either spend more time, or get more people in resupply vehicles to achieve the same effect, or simply not bothering because once the horde is there, they just move on to the next base.


Tactics.
Even in situations where you could fight back M3s are often preferred because it's so easy. An often non risky and very efficient way to defend a base. There's a bomber showing up on dar? Spawn an M3. There's a single vehicle taking down my town? I spawn a M3. It's not only those desperate fights against the hordes were M3s show up. Ever so often you can see them running even when there was a decent change to fight back. Heck, I regularly see bases being lost because everybody was jumping in an M3 instead of looking at the maproom.
(The problem of discussions about this topic is that advocates of both sides ("keep it!" vs "change it") are often arguing with with extreme cases only.)

IMHO, delegating supply to SdKfz could give a former hangar queen a vital role in the game (variety!), and gives a better incentive to fight than just to resupply. All while not taking away resupply entirely - Which would actually be impossible without a complete change of the strat system and not even desirable for keeping up a diverse gameplay with options for newer players to contribute in particular.

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Offline redcatcherb412

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2017, 12:43:50 PM »
This tells me that 1 in 5 GVers is engaged in non-combat activities. That's significant.

And in the real world, well Vietnam anyway for every grunt considered a direct combatant required 8 other troops in the back to do paperwork like payroll, supply and transport the grunts in the field and build/rebuild firebases and logistics bases.  Doubt you'll find many grunts or gyrenes on here that didn't wait impatiently for the resup chopper for ammo, food, water, mail etc.  We always talked irreverently about the REMF's, but you should of heard the griping if supply was late or didn't come and you had 3 mags left at nightfall.
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Online Devil 505

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2017, 12:55:59 PM »
It is, but what is the acceptable range?  We've got a number in a vacuum.  None of us have the data to say what percentages things were at in the good old days when things were supposedly awesome.  For all we know, it used to be 1 in 6, or 1 in 4.

But people are sure drawing conclusions from it based on their own opinions.

And what I REALLY don't understand is how slowing down resupply by moving it to the SDK is going to accomplish anything other than having people either spend more time, or get more people in resupply vehicles to achieve the same effect, or simply not bothering because once the horde is there, they just move on to the next base.

Wiley.

Luche explained his rationale, but I don't think simply slowing down the delivery of town supplies will help that much. I agree much more with having fixed down times fot town objects.

Even more so, I believe that restoring the 6K icon for GV's will ensure they can be engaged and killed frequently enough to curb the total base capture or resupply by a reasonable amount as to encourage more air sorties.

Of coures not every GVer will resort to aircraft.
Nor will most M3 drivers even dare risk their hides in a true combat role. -For them I suggest Euro Truck Simulator.
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Offline wil3ur

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2017, 01:08:56 PM »
AH III -- the worlds premier Payroll and Office Administration sim!

 :rofl  :rofl  :rofl
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Offline Wiley

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2017, 01:10:38 PM »
And in the real world, well Vietnam anyway for every grunt considered a direct combatant required 8 other troops in the back to do paperwork like payroll, supply and transport the grunts in the field and build/rebuild firebases and logistics bases.  Doubt you'll find many grunts or gyrenes on here that didn't wait impatiently for the resup chopper for ammo, food, water, mail etc.  We always talked irreverently about the REMF's, but you should of heard the griping if supply was late or didn't come and you had 3 mags left at nightfall.

So...  You're suggesting we need the ability to play as a payroll clerk? ;)


Tactics.
Even in situations where you could fight back M3s are often preferred because it's so easy. An often non risky and very efficient way to defend a base. There's a bomber showing up on dar? Spawn an M3. There's a single vehicle taking down my town? I spawn a M3. It's not only those desperate fights against the hordes were M3s show up. Ever so often you can see them running even when there was a decent change to fight back. Heck, I regularly see bases being lost because everybody was jumping in an M3 instead of looking at the maproom.
(The problem of discussions about this topic is that advocates of both sides ("keep it!" vs "change it") are often arguing with with extreme cases only.)

I agree with your assessment, as I usually do.  It is tricky because the extremes are seen quite often at both ends.  Just looking at the above examples, what does it being the SDK change though?  It's slower, but in both cases above does the speed difference significantly impact the outcome?  I'm terribly skeptical.  An extra minute in the above situations isn't likely to affect much.  I think the impact would be much more on the "steady train of attackers and resuppliers" kind of battles.

Quote
IMHO, delegating supply to SdKfz could give a former hangar queen a vital role in the game (variety!), and gives a better incentive to fight than just to resupply. All while not taking away resupply entirely - Which would actually be impossible without a complete change of the strat system and not even desirable for keeping up a diverse gameplay with options for newer players to contribute in particular.

And that's the sticking point for me.  If people are stuck on "resupply is the best thing I can do to help" IMHO they're more likely to give up rather than fight if resupply is slowed to the point where they can see it becomes ineffective.

Luche explained his rationale, but I don't think simply slowing down the delivery of town supplies will help that much. I agree much more with having fixed down times fot town objects.

Even more so, I believe that restoring the 6K icon for GV's will ensure they can be engaged and killed frequently enough to curb the total base capture or resupply by a reasonable amount as to encourage more air sorties.

Of coures not every GVer will resort to aircraft.
Nor will most M3 drivers even dare risk their hides in a true combat role. -For them I suggest Euro Truck Simulator.

Those are some serious changes.  I am skeptical of HT's agreement. ;)  Mostly due to the fact he added the Storch specifically for the shorter icons.

Euro Truck Simulator 2 was on sale last weekend, I forgot to post about it.  Sad that many people likely missed out.

Wiley.
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Offline Lusche

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2017, 01:21:45 PM »

Euro Truck Simulator 2 was on sale last weekend, I forgot to post about it.  Sad that many people likely missed out.



No worries, I've been playing that game for quite some time now  :rock
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Offline Zoney

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2017, 01:29:31 PM »
What i get out of it, is the gameboard needs to appear to have action to attract new players.. and at this rate keep its current ones.  You arent going to get folks to pay 15 bucks monthly without some intense action.

Resupplying a base is.. well... not action

Illogical as it is now we DO have folks paying 15 bucks a month to do what you say is not action.  It isn't action for you maybe but it certainly is action for them.
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Offline Ramesis

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2017, 01:34:11 PM »
Now that tour 213 is finished (and thus the only full tour in which the M3had its troops removed), we can take a look at how it affected captures:

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

As you can see, the results are much less dramatic that some players tried to make us believe at the beginning.


And yes, I have abandoned my AH stats thread, because it makes no sense featuring a thread with hundreds of "your link is no longer available". So I will just go back to post stuff here and there again.

I'm guessing the bomber numbers are for all bombers and NOT just the goon?
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Offline redcatcherb412

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Re: The M3 experiment is over.
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2017, 01:39:36 PM »
So...  You're suggesting we need the ability to play as a payroll clerk? ;)

Hardly, just illustrating a posters (1 out of 6) non combatants comparison versus (1 out of 9) from an actual combat theaters ratio. Seems to indicate the non combatant ratio of AH resupply is almost double. But of course a field supply grunt in 1968 didn't drop off a box of ammo one moment then drive a tank flattening a town the next either.

I do wish a few times the paymaster would have been in the boonies with us when they screwed up the pay though.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 01:44:11 PM by redcatcherb412 »
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