Author Topic: what is the best of the best anti virus program???  (Read 2536 times)

Offline Vulcan

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2017, 12:04:10 PM »

Well common sense kicks in with all file types as they, for the most part, have there own typical file size depending on the size original file and if you were expecting a file from a friend than it should be no issue at all.  Also anyone that has auto read turned on in any email program that they may use deserves what they get as that is the most insecure method of checking your email. So it boils down knowing what is going on in your IT environment. I get it dude, got to get those sale numbers up but in reality simply paying attention to what you are doing is the best proactive method out there and being able to react to a threat is just as valuable.

Working IT contracting for the government has taught me a lot about personal accountability with safe, responsible and productive computing.


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You simply don't get it. A PNG crafted in a particular way can download a dropper which then starts to bring more stuff in. And yes this sort of stuff exists. This is what the bad guys do, they find a crack and they slip in that way. Sometimes that crack is not closed for months. And I really don't get the file size relevance or expecting a file from a friend?

And what do you mean auto-read? And how the heck would it be an insecure way of checking your email?

Sales numbers? I don't need sales numbers - you may think you know what you are talking about here but you are very far from the truth. I've done contract work for the government as well...

Offline Ciaphas

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2017, 12:05:18 PM »
We will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.


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Offline Vulcan

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2017, 12:20:28 PM »
It depends on how the code is embedded. If it is the old double extension trick, then just enabling the ability to see the extensions in Windows will reveal that.  If it using steganography, then you are not going to just stop that download, but that also requires an external program (malware/virus) to extract and build the final code from the image.

The PNG used an exploit against the rendering library which then allowed it to pull in and execute dropper file.

Offline 100Coogn

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2017, 12:30:49 PM »
It depends on how the code is embedded. If it is the old double extension trick, then just enabling the ability to see the extensions in Windows will reveal that.  If it using steganography, then you are not going to just stop that download, but that also requires an external program (malware/virus) to extract and build the final code from the image.


I have mine set to 'show extensions for known file types'.  Haven't had a problem.

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Offline Bizman

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2017, 01:06:42 PM »
And what do you mean auto-read? And how the heck would it be an insecure way of checking your email?

That one is something I somewhat do understand. Preview is the right term, I suppose. In the days of Outlook Express all content was shown in the preview which could trigger a virus.

Current e-mail clients as well as webmails tend to block showing html content or images without asking so security has improved at that point. Attachments have always had to be executed by the reader so they've been relatively safe - although a great deal of readers aren't alert or savvy enough not to click before checking. Also the ISP's and other mailbox providers have their own filters which protect at least private users quite well. At least that's how it's here, can't tell about other countries apart from Gmail or Outlook/Live/Hotmail/whatevertheynowcallit.

Again, these are just my thoughts based on what I see. Malware cleaning has become more and more rare in my business during these 13 years in the business. Then again, the cases have become tougher.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 01:10:01 PM by Bizman »

Offline Vulcan

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2017, 01:29:58 PM »
That one is something I somewhat do understand. Preview is the right term, I suppose. In the days of Outlook Express all content was shown in the preview which could trigger a virus.

Current e-mail clients as well as webmails tend to block showing html content or images without asking so security has improved at that point. Attachments have always had to be executed by the reader so they've been relatively safe - although a great deal of readers aren't alert or savvy enough not to click before checking. Also the ISP's and other mailbox providers have their own filters which protect at least private users quite well. At least that's how it's here, can't tell about other countries apart from Gmail or Outlook/Live/Hotmail/whatevertheynowcallit.

Again, these are just my thoughts based on what I see. Malware cleaning has become more and more rare in my business during these 13 years in the business. Then again, the cases have become tougher.

I knew what term he mean't I was highlighting a point ;)

That said even though you turn off preview most email clients will pre-render the email or pre-load the images (even if you have this turned off). I witnessed this first hand when I was testing Cylance (last year). An email came into my inbox, I wasn't actually doing anything on that PC and was working on another PC when Cylance started going nuts. Outlook had all the usual security settings (turned off rendering of images etc). Turned out it was a corrupt PNG and deep down outlook/windows image libraries were being exploited without even opening or previewing the email.

The first problem people just don't get is the gap in time it takes for a traditional AV program to get signatures which recognize new threats. When I was doing testing AV apps like Windows Defender and even McAfee took weeks to months before they recognized the malware samples I had.

The next problem people do not understand is the attack surface. This "oh I run noscript or turn off stuff in my browser" horse**** - bad guys don't care - your browser is the target. For example look at Chromes CVEs for 2017 : https://www.cvedetails.com/product/15031/Google-Chrome.html?vendor_id=1224     <- in 2017 there are 153 vulnerabilities for Chrome alone. Safari had a 172, and MS Edge had 201 - those Firefox looks pretty clean with just 1 that year.

If you then run plugins within your browser such as flash you are further exposed.

So my experiences in 2016 where a "holy crap" moment when the penny dropped that old school AV didn't cut it any more AND the bad guys had figured out some very silent ways of infecting PCs. We saw more of that with the likes of Wannacry and it's use of EternalBlue.

At the end of 2017 we're seeing a new interesting trend in cryptomining-malware that doesn't do anything like encrypt your files, it just sucks up CPU cycles mining for bitcoin.

I often see sites where people have no 3rd party security as compromised and often enabling the bad guys (ie servers are compromised). These people often wonder why they get blacklisted.


Offline Bizman

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2017, 03:17:21 AM »
The link you provided some good information about browser vulnerability. However there's one thing missing, or I just couldn't find it: How fast the issues get fixed.

In 2009 when IE was the mainstream browser and Firefox the rising challenger the numbers were 32 for IE vs 129 for Firefox. Those numbers look familiar compared to a memory I have about reading a small article on the subject back then. The time to fix said vulnerabilities was hours to days by Mozilla compared to months by Microsoft. So the amount doesn't tell the whole truth. It would be nice to know the recent history of rapidity.

The issue you had with the corrupted PNG using Outlook is scary. It also raises a question: If your e-mail is restricted to friends and family only and their e-mailing is equally restricted, wouldn't the risk of such an attack be next to nothing? That's the situation for a great deal of my customers, aged 50+. I wouldn't like to be the boy shouting "Wolf, wolf" just because they exist, neither do I want to make them trust into false security. Complicated, isn't it? What's the Internet security level of your parents/grandparents?

Offline Skuzzy

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2017, 06:42:34 AM »
I have been telling people, for years, never use Outlook.  It is one of several programs I have blacklisted.

Any program not using the standard C library functions for any file I/O is suspect.  Anything using .NET or written in VB (Visual Basic) and using file I/O is a potential problem.
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Offline Ciaphas

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what is the best of the best anti virus program😧
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2017, 12:33:11 PM »
I would hope that in a business setting, one that has IT sec personnel, Outlook and other like programs are set to display plain text only. The individuals that use these robust programs need to educate themselves on how to configure their environment to prevent the types of attacks you describe, also, for any action to be taken on an unopened email points me to a process that is open in the background accessing the unopened email or was waiting perhaps for that specific email as a trigger. A file such as a PNG requires an action/trigger to initiate so it is completely plausible that something was already lurking in the system prior to the email showing up. I am interested in the complete story (start to finish process).


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Offline Vulcan

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program😧
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2017, 12:42:43 PM »
I would hope that in a business setting, one that has IT sec personnel, Outlook and other like programs are set to display plain text only. The individuals that use these robust programs need to educate themselves on how to configure their environment to prevent the types of attacks you describe, also, for any action to be taken on an unopened email points me to a process that is open in the background accessing the unopened email or was waiting perhaps for that specific email as a trigger. A file such as a PNG requires an action/trigger to initiate so it is completely plausible that something was already lurking in the system prior to the email showing up. I am interested in the complete story (start to finish process).

Outlook pre-renders images when it arrives in your inbox without opening the email or having the reading pane on. The file was not lurking in the system.

I work in IT Security with a specialisation in firewalls and network security, I've worked in IT for over 30 years.

Offline 100Coogn

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program😧
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2017, 12:45:43 PM »
Outlook pre-renders images when it arrives in your inbox without opening the email or having the reading pane on. The file was not lurking in the system.

I work in IT Security with a specialization in firewalls and network security, I've worked in IT for over 30 years.

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Offline Ciaphas

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #41 on: December 29, 2017, 01:15:21 PM »
Outlook, has been set up to not render images. So, why would they render when you receive a new message? All Outlook is doing is scanning for file type and acting based on that. Again why would Outlook pre-render the potentially dangerous item but not allow it to be shown in an email body after it already accessed the file? And depending on the protocol they are using, if anything, that file would have to get through their web-servers protocols. Explain the process, it’s ok, I don’t mind being wrong but everything you have stated thus far is contrary to Outlooks design.


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Offline Vulcan

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2017, 01:40:04 PM »
Outlook, has been set up to not render images.

Says who?

Offline Ciaphas

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2017, 01:43:00 PM »
Why on earth would a program render something it is trying block?


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Offline Vulcan

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Re: what is the best of the best anti virus program???
« Reply #44 on: December 29, 2017, 01:56:42 PM »
Why on earth would a program render something it is trying block?


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You're not making any sense?