FSO violation and the message they send

[alpini13]

  hello everyone.
  we have seen violation of FSO rules in the past, we had violations in the most recent may  FSO.   when one side chooses to violate the rules they gain an advantage that they should not have, they are penalazed for it. but are they penalized enough??  i do not think so...and heres why...the points violation does not change the scoring outcome enough to be a deterrent, if it did, then sides would not keep on violating the rules. and looking at fso records violations keep occurring, even during scenario's when it is brought to the attention of the community. this in itself is proof that violation penalties are not strong enough.   then i also have to wonder as to the ethics and quality of the players that are violating these rules repeatedly....if this is the new standard of players here,i see why number have been declining.    i would think side co's and participants would police thier own sides to stop this kind of thing, but i have not seen it done. i would like to  see something done about this, before there isnt an FSO left to play in.

[DubiousKB]

Alt cap is easy. I've made that mistake easily enough before, the wind (down-draft or similar) is a nice reminder of that.

But how "bad" are you talking?

I'd agree that violations seem to be a non-factor when it comes to score. But I've never felt insulted or whatever at the score. embarrassed yes, insulted and angry no....

[waystin2]

I think we need specifics here.  If it's an alt cap I could care less.  We have all bounced off that top layer a time or two and that wicked downdraft is a great reminder. 

[puller]

I saw the negative points...But didn't give them a second thought...I just assumed they were overused planes...Or under used planes...The way you should judge an FSO is whether everyone had fun...I thought it was a good setup and my guys had fun... Mission accomplished...Wtg CMs 

[Wiley]

Seems to me bomber alt caps are the most likely culprit, is that the issue?  Maybe a bit of CM policing with some immediate repercussions (ie-grounding) would get people in line?

Wiley.

[waystin2]

If we are going to start weeing and moaning about bomber alt caps then we just should institute consistent alt caps for all planes fighters and bombers or none at all.  Problem solved.    Jeebus who does not scrape the ceiling in FSO?  We all do it.

[Wiley]

If we are going to start weeing and moaning about bomber alt caps then we just should institute consistent alt caps for all planes fighters and bombers or none at all.  Problem solved.    Jeebus who does not scrape the ceiling in FSO?  We all do it.

So... you're essentially saying "We should force interceptors to attack from level with the bombers."  Or, you're saying "All FSO bomber sorties should be from maximum attainable altitude."  Neither is a great idea IMO.

Wiley.

[Devil 505]

If we are going to start weeing and moaning about bomber alt caps then we just should institute consistent alt caps for all planes fighters and bombers or none at all.  Problem solved.    Jeebus who does not scrape the ceiling in FSO?  We all do it.

It all depends on the context. If we're talking about one guy a couple hundred feet over the cap, then I agree that making a big deal is not worth the effort. But if we're talking about an entire squad deliberately going well over an established cap to gain an advantage, then throw the book at them.

[waystin2]

It all depends on the context. If we're talking about one guy a couple hundred feet over the cap, then I agree that making a big deal is not worth the effort. But if we're talking about an entire squad deliberately going well over an established cap to gain an advantage, then throw the book at them.

The Pigs flew bombers for three frames this month.  As some piss and moan I will tell you that you are welcome for the targets.    I can assure you that we scraped that alt cap every time but made every effort as we do every month to stay within the frame work of the write up.  Two of those weeks we had lead for our attack group and had control of another squad who were also monitored closely in altitude and flight behavior. I know JG54 got bombers at least two of those frames and I can't imagine Jaeger flying outside of cap, so that leaves maybe a squad or two that could have possibly misbehaved. Claim Jumpers and 162nd I believe.  Again somehow doubt they would have done anything out of bounds.  I am thinking that there just was not this gross violation of alt cap that is being imagined here.  Can someone correct me on this?     I am sensing something about nothing.

[Wiley]

That I know of, nobody's mentioned what the violations were, hence the ? at the end of the sentence where I mentioned the alt caps.  Easy, waystin.

Wiley.

[Spikes]

  hello everyone.
  we have seen violation of FSO rules in the past, we had violations in the most recent may  FSO.   when one side chooses to violate the rules they gain an advantage that they should not have, they are penalazed for it. but are they penalized enough??  i do not think so...and heres why...the points violation does not change the scoring outcome enough to be a deterrent, if it did, then sides would not keep on violating the rules. and looking at fso records violations keep occurring, even during scenario's when it is brought to the attention of the community. this in itself is proof that violation penalties are not strong enough.   then i also have to wonder as to the ethics and quality of the players that are violating these rules repeatedly....if this is the new standard of players here,i see why number have been declining.    i would think side co's and participants would police thier own sides to stop this kind of thing, but i have not seen it done. i would like to  see something done about this, before there isnt an FSO left to play in.

I assume you are talking about Frame 3 last month (among other instances). I had plenty of film to look at and conferred with other CMs on the matter. The majority of the bombers in Frame 3 climbed above 23K after the drop, and they could do so based on how the rule was worded. It wasn't my intention for that to happen, nor did I think it would happen, but it did.

With that being said, I can't penalize someone for something when they aren't breaking the rules. There was one person who was above the alt cap on ingress, who didn't destroy anything. I negated their plane's value as a penalty. Had it been more people in a blatant attempt to break the rules to gain an advantage I could have done more.

[FBDragon]

On my attack on the enemy bombers was well before their drop I came in at 25k, as I got closer, still well before the drop. The entire group was well above me. Now I'm not asking for penalties for my film was not saved due to my stupidity but I'd would rather that it just at least be made aware of any alt cap by each squad and try to the utmost to be kept.

[snakeplissken]

Seems to me bomber alt caps are the most likely culprit, is that the issue?  Maybe a bit of CM policing with some immediate repercussions (ie-grounding) would get people in line?

Spikes explanation explains this.  Any violation that doesn't disrupt the game is reviewed, discussed and then ultimately left to the designer of the event (unless HTC gets involved and none of us want that.)  That's actually funny now that I think of it.  "Hey Roy!  Dale! It is Plissken.  I know it is almost midnight but, I got a single bomber at 27K!  What should I do?  Hello?  Hello?"

Violations happen.  CM's debate and we move on.  Now, if it is a violation that effects a number of people during the event, then us blue-collar CM's get involved.  Believe it or not, after we (CM's) act, we have to present our case for debate.  The big thing is... everyone show up and have fun.  Even if it's a violation... don't make it a habit.  Oh, BTW Pigs... I noticed you guys shot back.  But bomber duty for 3 Frames?  and Well Done!

[Dantoo]

I hate alt caps. And rules.....I don't like them much.  Don't like parsnips either but that's another story but I really don't like alt caps.  Silly.

[Devil 505]

I hate alt caps. And rules.....I don't like them much.  Don't like parsnips either but that's another story but I really don't like alt caps.  Silly.

They serve a needed purpose, especially when it comes to caps on bombers.