F4U1-C

[RAM]

OUUUCH!!! sorry the thread should be called "f4u1-C vs Ta152"...I dont know why says only F4U1-C!!!

From "airplanes of WWII":

"Approximately 150 Ta 1252H-1 fighters were manufactured between January 1, 1945 and the final abandoning of production with the arrival of Soviet forces at the Cottbus assembly plant. No Jagdgruppen ever completely converted to the type, but several Jagdstaffeln operated the Ta 152H alongside the Fw 190D and other types. Most of the Ta 152s operated in the close-support role. Others flew "top-cover" for bases from which Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters operated, trying to protect the jets from being "bounced" by Allied fighters during takeoff or landing. It was said that no British or American fighters risked attacking an Me 262 during landing while Ta 152s were known to be circling the airfield. The large wing area of the Ta 152 made it quite easy to fly. Most of the Ta 152Hs, however, were destroyed on the ground by Allied air attacks while awaiting delivery. A few Ta 152Hs were allocated to the Mistel program.

Near the end of 1944, Kurt Tank himself had a narrow escape while flying one of his Ta 152Hs. He was flying from Langenhagen near Hannover to attend a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus. His plane carried armament, but no ammunition. Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs. Tank pressed the button which activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.

link is:http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html#RTFToC2

ok, there were no more than a couple of hundreds of F4U1-Cs on action over okinawa and Japan. Seems that at least more than a hundred of Ta152s made their way to frontline units, even the JG301 had nearly all their machines being Ta152s.

SO...now there is no excuse. We have several limited production planes in AH: N1K2, C205, F4U1-C...so the limited production is no an excuse. LW pilots NEEDS a competitive 190 to ride, thats a fact, and A8 ISNT that ride right now. A D9 will be welcome but if the desire of HTC is to bring to AH planes not available in other sims, but used in real combat in WWII, then Ta152 Is MANDATORY.

ya, ya...A5 is coming. Fer sure will be welcome. Fer sure japanese nuts wants another planes (Zero's coming too), and ruskyi wants more too...they are right. But I feel that I am right too. Many of you say that there are 5 LW planes here. Only 2 are competitive (109G2 and G10), the others are REALLY outclassed right now. SO, LW pilots arent too far from Japanese, isnt it?...

HTC, Ta152 saw REAL combat, and was FEARED by allied pilots. Please bring it to us soon!

<S> and thanks

------------------
Ram, out

JG2 "Richthofen"

 

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-11-2000).]

[fd ski]

 

Originally posted by RAM:
Ta152 saw REAL combat, and was FEARED by allied pilots.

And who said it was "feared" so much ?
Let's do a reality check.
Early 1945.
LW is manned by old hands you can count on fingers of one person, and 15 year olds with 10 fligth hours.
Odds are something like 100 to 1.
Allied pilots strafe everything that moves for a lack of anything better to do.

And they FEAR a couple fighters circling over the field at 10k ?

get the heck outta here...

It's this kind of anecdotes that really create some silly myths in people's heads.

Now every 16 year old who thinks he's Eric Hartmann will use lack-of-MW40 as an excuse for getting his silly bellybutton shot down...

"oh, please HT, model MW40, cause if we had it i could punch it and accelerate from 100 mph to 5000 mph in half a second... this is not historically correct as it is... whaaa.."

Come on RAM, experimental planes ( cause the production run of 152 looks like just that ) that BARELY made it to the front line units in TRICLES...

BTW - look at 152's numbers - below 40k looked like would be at best an average plane, at least climbwise.

And to think you guys complain about 1943 spitfires  

Cheers...


------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Fishu]

Yup yup, quit petting the allies!

Give us one good german plane... (I don't mean any lousy jets)

Allies already have a bunch of their most famous fighters, but germans just have some of regular ones. (ya, we go into fight with 190A-8 against most modern P-51's, 35k buffs, F4u-C's...)
190A-5 will be an improvement, but but.. wait, it's from time before A-8, even before some those rare N1K2s etc.

No real excuse why there couldn't be Ta-152 also.

[Rendar]

We NEED the Ta-152H.  Not the G, The H.  
Here is my wishlist:

Ta-152H
Lancaster Mk. IV
P-51H
Spitfire Mk. XVI or XIV
Il-2
La-7
Mig-3
Ki-84II (4x20mm Ho 5)
Ju-488
He-111
P-63
B-26 w/ 16 forward-firing .50 cals  

Tiger Panzer (Mk. VI)
T-34
German Half-Track w/ troops for field capture
Willys Jeep w/ light MG

------------------
mp-ten
Lt. J.G. VF-100 "The Haze"

[funked]

There were not hundreds of Ta 152's in combat.  There were maybe a dozen Ta 152H's that made it to combat units.  Get a grip.    

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 04-11-2000).]

[RAM]

Originally posted by fd ski:
And who said it was "feared" so much ?

read avobe:
"It was said that no British or American fighters risked attacking an Me 262 during landing while Ta 152s were known to be circling the airfield. The large wing area of the Ta 152 made it quite easy to fly. "


Come on RAM, experimental planes ( cause the production run of 152 looks like just that ) that BARELY made it to the front line units in TRICLES...

Did F4U1-C reach front line in something else?...and N1K2? and C205?

BTW - look at 152's numbers - below 40k looked like would be at best an average plane, at least climbwise.

You even didnt moved yourself and tried to look the page I said before starting to tell me that I'm a whiner...from the page (URL: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html#RTFToC2 and this time, please take a look before answer):

"Engine: Junkers Jumo 213E-1 twelve-cylinder liquid-cooled engine rated at 1750 hp for takeoff (2050 hp with MW 50 boost) and 1320 hp at 32,800 feet (1740 feet with GM 1 boost). Maximum speed: 332 mph at sea level (350 mph with MW 50 boost), 465 mph at 29,530 feet with MW 50 boost, 472 mph at 41,010 feet with GM 1 boost. Service ceiling was 48,550 feet with GM 1 boost. Initial climb rate was 3445 feet/minute with MW 50 boost. Weights were 8642 pounds empty, 10,472 pounds normal loaded, 11,502 pounds maximum. Wingspan 47 feet 41/2 inches, length 35 feet 1 2/3 inches, height 11 feet 0 1/4 inches, wing area 250.8 square feet. "

Hmmm...465 Mph at 30K...hmmm...maybe over 10K this plane was "a little" good, isnt it?...maybe more good than you say, maybe it deserves more than an "average" calification...or no?...and anyway, if you take a look AGAIN at the avobe post, it says:

"Near the end of 1944, Kurt Tank himself had a narrow escape while flying one of his Ta 152Hs. He was flying from Langenhagen near Hannover to attend a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus. His plane carried armament, but no ammunition. Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs. Tank pressed the button which activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke. "

So, just over the field, the plane outaccelerated and outruned some P51s...deck level is lower than 40k, isnt it?    (Image removed from quote.) and that in a plane (the H series) that put way more emphasis on high altitude than in low altitudes (low on the deck, the ta152C was better than the H)

And to think you guys complain about 1943 spitfires      

You have a nice all around plane (Spit IX), a nice TnBer (spitV) and a low level runner (Tiffie). We have nothing but a fast low level truck that bleeds E faster than a B17 and that is useless avobe 20K. I guess I have "SOME REASON" to ask for a more competitive plane. IMHO, you havent that reason.

Anyway I'll never say a bad word about Spits, I like killing them, or running away from them. So I'm not one of those complainers, I think is a well balanced plane that lacks a bit of speed but has everything else. Nice plane, not of my taste, but I wont complain about it.

Ta152 is a plane than deserves to be here. No, it isnt an uberplane, at least no more than the p51 is right now, and remember that flaps make p51s turn much better now...a slow ta152 will be dead meat because it turns even worse than a Fw190.

So, again IMHO, Ta152 needs a place right here    (Image removed from quote.)


[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-11-2000).]

[fd ski]

FW 190D9 has a right to be there.

152 is just as justified as putting meteor in.
 

"It was said that no British or American fighters risked attacking an Me 262 during landing while Ta 152s were known to be circling
           the airfield. The large wing area of the Ta 152 made it quite easy to fly. "

Some writter has a reach fantasy life.
It was said ? By whom ?
It was said that i'm the king of the world. WORSHIP ME !!!  

 

Maximum speed: 332 mph at sea level (350 mph with MW 50 boost)

Perfect match to FW 190A8 isn't it ?
Slower then A4 right ?
FAR slower then P51 and Spitfire 14... and tiffy for that matter...

which brings us to the even more interesting point: ( from the very URL you posted   )
 

The Ta 152C-1 was ...Maximum speed was 227 mph at sea level (356 mph with MW 50),

He must have made a typo there with 227  
C model was WHOOPING 6 MPH FASTER THEN H MODEL ON THE DECK. YAHOOOO !!!

Both were at best a match for P51 on the deck. Both would be outran by Spitfire XIV.

Had quite enough yet ?

Nah.. let's not stop yet  

 

Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs. Tank pressed the button which activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.

We already establised that speed of 152C and H was roughly about the same as P51 on the deck right ?

Let's do a little test. You can take off and accelerate to as high speed as you can while flying on the deck in P51. Then me and 3 of my buddies can dive on you from 10k in P51's and see if you can outrun us ?
Just look for that MW50 button real fast...

Whole story is fiction BS. He must have had at least SOME room to dive - aka SHORTLY IS MORE THEN FEW MINUTES. and 51's didn't follow for whatever reason.
Truly an achievement.

I have a story of a 315 squadron fighing 190's in P51bs in 4 vs 1 odds and killing 16 for a loss of 1. Does this prove that P51b was the best fighter ever below 5k ?

 

We have nothing but a fast low level truck that bleeds E faster than a B17 and that is useless avobe 20K. I guess I have "SOME REASON" to ask for a more competitive plane. IMHO, you havent that reason.

Last time i checked there was more LW fighters in this game then any other nation - that's INCLUDING US of A.
Why the hell you asking for 190A5 too ? If its only a tad better then A8 ?
It's gonna bleed E like a little truck ? And be usable to 21,000 ?
Last time i checked 109G10 was a nice little stang killer if flown properly. What ? Can't fight without 4 cannons ?  

Sorry RAM, 152 ain't what you guys need. Anywhere below 25k this plane would be baldy outclassed in all repects, and if you were to be historically accurate - P51K, H and P47M and N's would give it nice whooping at 40k.

There is no miracle plane that will change the fact that average LW fighter of 1945 ( save for Me 262 ) was at best contemporary to allied fighters of the time.
Fact that LW pilots managed to do so well in them is a testiment to their skill - not a reason to think that there is something wrong in history.

Let's put it this way:

152 up to 20k won't be much faster then what you have in 190A8.

it will turn better, but if are under the impression that you will turn with N1K1's - think again.

It will be outclimbed by almost EVERY fighter - including spitfire IXe up to 20k. It actually climbs slower then 190A8 low due to those larger wings.

inline engine - far more vunerable then radial.

So you gonnna climb it to 45k ?
And who are you going to fight there ?
Sooner or later you will come down to 20k - where the targets are - and you will dream for 190A8.

Cheers  

------------------
Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

If nothing makes you happier then burning 109 - come and join us - we're looking for few good men

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Elp]

During WW2, surprise was the best ACM ( vide Hartmann ). So, if you can't have "surprise" at your side due icons, radar, sun, clouds and plane size, Luftwaffe needs a good plane to "game the game".
Level playing field was not part of air combat during war, surprise was the dominant fator. Is it cool, no. So, give a good German fighter to people who wanna play whit them.

[Hristo]

MW 50 is what makes G-10 a competitive plane in AH. The rest of LW planes in AH are just average or below average.

190D-9 would be competitive indeed. Ta-152 would be competitive too, it had big guns and quite lower wingloading than usual 190 series.

Considering number of planes produced and time of their introduction, I'd vote for D-9 before the Ta-152. But then again, my first vote is the 262  

[RAM]

heeya again Fdski    


  152 is just as justified as putting meteor in.

of course...as soon as you bring Me262 with it...    


Perfect match to FW 190A8 isn't it ?
Slower then A4 right ?
FAR slower then P51 and Spitfire 14... and tiffy for that matter...

Cc...but try to catch me at 15K    

which brings us to the even more interesting point: ( from the very URL you posted       )
   

The Ta 152C-1 was ...Maximum speed was 227 mph at sea level (356 mph with MW 50),

He must have made a typo there with 227      
C model was WHOOPING 6 MPH FASTER THEN H MODEL ON THE DECK. YAHOOOO !!![/b]

Well I think that anyone can have a typing error. and about C faster than H at deck level, it is right. Again ,if you read the page, it explains clearly that C and H designations have nothing to do with the progressive series, but for the fact that H series where optimized for hi altitude performance, and C to medium altitudes. So is perfectly understandable that C series performed better at lower altitudes.

Nah.. let's not stop yet      

   

Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs. Tank pressed the button which activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.

We already establised that speed of 152C and H was roughly about the same as P51 on the deck right ?[/b]

Right, but says nothing but acceleration ,nor the altitude of the P51s. At sea level the Ju engine with MW50 delivered 2050hp, what means 600 more hp than mustang...call that acceleration, man. Tank sat down the mustangs, and they were left with no breath    

Whole story is fiction BS. He must have had at least SOME room to dive - aka SHORTLY IS MORE THEN FEW MINUTES. and 51's didn't follow for whatever reason.
Truly an achievement.

This is not the first time I readed about that "BS fiction" story. It seems to have happened truly in WWII. And "whatever reason"s of P51s were "I cant catch that SOB"    

I have a story of a 315 squadron fighing 190's in P51bs in 4 vs 1 odds and killing 16 for a loss of 1. Does this prove that P51b was the best fighter ever below 5k ?

and I have stories of German rotten diving through hundreds of russian planes, killing 2 or 3 of them and going out unscathed. Not a valid argument ,and we both know it    

 Last time i checked there was more LW fighters in this game then any other nation - that's INCLUDING US of A.
Why the hell you asking for 190A5 too ? If its only a tad better then A8 ?
It's gonna bleed E like a little truck ? And be usable to 21,000 ?
Last time i checked 109G10 was a nice little stang killer if flown properly. What ? Can't fight without 4 cannons ?      

Right now there are 5 fighter planes of LW. Only 109G2 and G10 are competitive (G2 barely now the mustang and P38 have flaps).
USA has 4 fighters, all of them competitive, and 2 of them (p38 and mustang) HIGHLY competitive. F4Us are a kind of trucks, too, but C version is a blast, and D version isnt bad, too.

fw190A5 has far less wingloading that A8, and with the same engine, and HP, has quite less weight. that means:
a) better acceleration
b) better climbrate
c) better turning
d) less E bleeding.
Seems that a "bit" of these things can make a far better fighter hmmm?
and, yes, over 15K the Fw190A5 will be outclassed as it is right now the A8. The difference is that with the A5 i'll be able to stay more time in fights before needing to break off and run home.

There is no miracle plane that will change the fact that average LW fighter of 1945 ( save for Me 262 ) was at best contemporary to allied fighters of the time.
Fact that LW pilots managed to do so well in them is a testiment to their skill - not a reason to think that there is something wrong in history.
 
Who says Ta152 is better than contemporate to allied planes? I say that I need that contemporating.

152 up to 20k won't be much faster then what you have in 190A8.

Ta152 starts to outpacea 190 from 15K

it will turn better, but if are under the impression that you will turn with N1K1's - think again.

I am a 190 driver. You dont need to tell me how bad does a 190 turns.

It will be outclimbed by almost EVERY fighter - including spitfire IXe up to 20k. It actually climbs slower then 190A8 low due to those larger wings.

then I need some engineering classes, cuz a plane that has a 2050 hp engine and doesnt outclimb a 1800hp plane with a relativelly marginal add in weight, then, must be a kind of X-file.

So you gonnna climb it to 45k ?
And who are you going to fight there ?
Sooner or later you will come down to 20k - where the targets are - and you will dream for 190A8.

well yes I'll do climb to 45K and kill some nasty 35000 feet P38s and 109G10s,not to talk about some power dives on B17s  .

And the day that I dream on having a Fw190A8 at 20K then will be a nightmare not a dream. over 15K Fw190 cant fight a fly, let alone an allied plane.


    love this kind of threads


------------------
Ram, out

Fw190D9? Ta152H1? The truth is out there
JG2 "Richthofen"




[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 04-11-2000).]

[Citabria]

bring in any plane you want if it can break the sound barrier in level flight fine as long as it has a historical weakness, be it turn ability weapon load or climb dive durability etc.

except there is one plane I fear will unbalance the entire arena and force all players to fly it since any who do not will loose 99% of all fair engagements against it no matter what tricks they know or pilot skill they use.

It will infect AH like a Virus and kill off any variety or sense of pilot vs pilot instead of the old machine vs better machine.

what is this aircraft that will be a sheer terror to all planes in AH now if its introduced?

just guess.

Spitfire XIV...

fast as a mustang, turns like a spit 9 and climbs better than a 109g10 and dives faster than any other aircraft.

really...
what fun would that be to fight a spit XIV in any plane besides a Spitfire XIV?


sure we all say:
 "I will get the satisfaction of killing a superior machin in my inferior ride"

will you still say that after all you see in the sky besides the diehard fans of different aircraft is ONLY the Spitfires?


by the way I hate all spitfires but I hate the XIV the most  


cheers  

[Pongo]

Love to see the 152 eventually, but that quote about allied pilots being afraid of them has to be the strangest baloney I have ever read. Only a small % of allied pilots at that time were seeing german planes at all, how many of them saw 152s....
Is there even a recorded expample of allied pilots doing anything but being crazey agressive at that phase of the war?
This thing was not a king tiger guys.



------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[bloom25]

Here's my opinion on the subject.  I would love to see the 190-d9, and I think it has every right to be included in the regular plane set.  I would also like to see the TA152 make it's flight sim debut, BUT only under the same conditions that the ME 262 would have if it were included.  Quite simply once it reached altitude this plane would be all but invincible.  Only the worst pilots could be killed after the 152 reached alt and speed.  The same goes for the ME 262.  I don't want a "Jet & Uberprop day", but I would like to see a way to have these planes added without completely killing off the chances of planes like the c202 to compete.  Perhaps we could have an "uber arena" where this plane is available.  Another way to do it would be to make it where the 152 could only be flown once every so many hours.  (Kind of like the country switch thing.)  This would simulate reality in a way by keeping numbers of the plane low.  The plane should also be available all the time in the SEA and Training arenas.

As for being feared by allied pilots, HA!  If by some rare chance an allied pilot met one in combat, he would probably think it was a long-nose 190.  I seriously doubt any plane with only 100 tops seeing combat could be feared.  Besides, what could 1 or 2 Ta 152s do against several Mustangs or Thunderbolts at a time?   (Where did you get that piece of information?)


bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS

[Jochen]

While I only fly Luftwaffe planes you might say I'm bit biased...

But I don't think Ta 152 is a issue in this phase of game! Very few produced, even fewer saw combat.

Fw 190D-9 is about last of Wulf line that can be reasonably expected to be modeled and I'm happy with that. Correctly modeled Dora would be good match for P-51 and other late war planes.

------------------
jochen
Geschwaderkommodore
Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (Warbirds)

jochen
JG 2 'Richthofen' (Aces High)

I want to believe! Fw 190F-8 / G-8 / A-5 to Aces High!

If you ever get across the sea to England,
Then maybe at the closing of the day
The bars will all be serving German lager
Which means we won the war - hip hip hooray!

[funked]

FYI:

Ta 152C was not produced.  Prototype only.

415 N1K2 were delivered to IJN.