Author Topic: The problem with AH aircraft labels  (Read 6317 times)

Offline Winger1

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
The problem with AH aircraft labels
« on: July 08, 2018, 04:28:31 AM »
Often times AH feels like a big game of rock/paper/scissors based on who has the better airplane and I feel like the overzealous labels is to blame for that. Having big red or green labels that show up almost 3 miles away, giving you all the info you need about the contact has really reduced much of the air v air combat to a contest where you don't have much of a chance unless you are in a select few planes that have the magic combo of 400+ mph and good turning at low energy. My main ride is the A5 or A8 190 but I also like the P51 and P47 or any number of mid-war planes and I consistently, almost always, loose 1v1 engagements against certain types: late war Spit, LA, Yak, Ki-84 etc and I almost always win against certain others. Twice tonight I lost in a 1v1 on equal terms with a Yak-9. Literally nothing I can do in an A5, he can catch me if I run and pull inside any conceivable maneuver I make. I've played for two years and I can fly my usual rides to the edge of the stall horn without loosing control so I know it's not me. Their plane is just better. Period.

In reality much of air combat is about who sees who first and who can sneak up on the other, this often evens the odds against a better airplane. But in AH, everyone knows where everyone is starting 2.5+ miles out. In the two years I've been playing I have only properly "bounced" people 3 times, in every other encounter the other person always knows I'm coming. If you are in certain aircraft you often have no chance and your only option is to not engage at all or get shot down in a 1v1. The only chance you really have is when there are teammates around you as that changes the whole dynamic. Even zoom and boom tactics are extremely difficult because your opponent always knows where you are, exactly when you start your dive and exactly when you're in firing range. Couple this with the near-360 degree view from the cockpit and it's very easy to pull just the right turn at just the right moment to avoid somebody's attack pass. I know this because I exploit it and I almost never get shot down by boom and zooms. It's also almost impossible to escape in many cases because it's so easy to spot you. In RL you had a chance to duck into a cloud or lose your pursuer by flying among trees, but the labels remove that element entirely. I often find myself not engaging anyone unless its  a head-on, it's the same type of plane as me, or there are teammates around; I avoid any other encounter like the plague and it often gets boring. Oh it's a enemy Yak, LA etc might as well not even go there.

How much more exciting would the game play be if you didn't know what kind of plane a contact was, or even whether he was friendly or not until getting within 1000 yards or less? That would make for some interesting encounters and it would make the game about more than just raw plane performance.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 04:35:26 AM by Winger1 »

Offline Bizman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9606
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2018, 05:26:24 AM »
In real life you can easily see and identify a fighter size plane from a longer distance than 3 miles. Without the icons I couldn't even tell the direction of a dot from that distance on my 30" screen. On a laptop I might not even see the dot. Yet I have no difficulty to identify a passenger plane flying over my house at 35000 feet on a clear day!

In a perfect world we'd have a bunch of wingmen and air policing looking around for enemies and screens that would show us lifelike images in real size. In reality we often fly alone trying to tell a fruit fly or a speck from a dot in the game.
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni

Offline atlau

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1221
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2018, 05:39:56 AM »
You might be able to spot a plane 3+ miles out if looking in the right direction, however AH allows you to scan 360 deg in mere seconds, which you could never do in real life.

Getting a 100% aircraft ID and determining which country markings it has...you'd need to get on closer than 1000 ft.

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27091
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2018, 06:03:29 AM »
Often times AH feels like a big game of rock/paper/scissors based on who has the better airplane and I feel like the overzealous labels is to blame for that. Having big red or green labels that show up almost 3 miles away, giving you all the info you need about the contact has really reduced much of the air v air combat to a contest where you don't have much of a chance unless you are in a select few planes that have the magic combo of 400+ mph and good turning at low energy. My main ride is the A5 or A8 190 but I also like the P51 and P47 or any number of mid-war planes and I consistently, almost always, loose 1v1 engagements against certain types: late war Spit, LA, Yak, Ki-84 etc and I almost always win against certain others. Twice tonight I lost in a 1v1 on equal terms with a Yak-9. Literally nothing I can do in an A5, he can catch me if I run and pull inside any conceivable maneuver I make. I've played for two years and I can fly my usual rides to the edge of the stall horn without loosing control so I know it's not me. Their plane is just better. Period.

In reality much of air combat is about who sees who first and who can sneak up on the other, this often evens the odds against a better airplane. But in AH, everyone knows where everyone is starting 2.5+ miles out. In the two years I've been playing I have only properly "bounced" people 3 times, in every other encounter the other person always knows I'm coming. If you are in certain aircraft you often have no chance and your only option is to not engage at all or get shot down in a 1v1. The only chance you really have is when there are teammates around you as that changes the whole dynamic. Even zoom and boom tactics are extremely difficult because your opponent always knows where you are, exactly when you start your dive and exactly when you're in firing range. Couple this with the near-360 degree view from the cockpit and it's very easy to pull just the right turn at just the right moment to avoid somebody's attack pass. I know this because I exploit it and I almost never get shot down by boom and zooms. It's also almost impossible to escape in many cases because it's so easy to spot you. In RL you had a chance to duck into a cloud or lose your pursuer by flying among trees, but the labels remove that element entirely. I often find myself not engaging anyone unless its  a head-on, it's the same type of plane as me, or there are teammates around; I avoid any other encounter like the plague and it often gets boring. Oh it's a enemy Yak, LA etc might as well not even go there.

How much more exciting would the game play be if you didn't know what kind of plane a contact was, or even whether he was friendly or not until getting within 1000 yards or less? That would make for some interesting encounters and it would make the game about more than just raw plane performance.

Wrong..... all you know is the plane type. The plane is just the tool that the PILOT uses to fight with. Just because the tool another pilot uses is worn and long in the tooth does not mean you will not be in the tower scratching your head.

In the AVA they used to run "no icon" nights. Was fun for awhile but extremely hard to deal with if it was on a regular basis. In real life you can ID pretty far out in weather such as ours in-game. The icon is to makeup for the small views and pixels.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 06:07:32 AM by Shuffler »
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline ImADot

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2018, 06:49:43 AM »
To be fair, you only get to see the icon showing the plane type (Spit, 109, Yak, etc.) from a distance. You must get in much closer before you're told that it's a Spit9 or Spit16 or 109E, etc.
My Current Rig:
GigaByte GA-X99-UD4 Mobo w/ 16Gb RAM
Intel i7 5820k, Win7 64-bit
NVidia GTX 970 4Gb ACX 2.0
Track IR, CH Fighterstick, CH Pro Throttle, CH Pro Pedals

Offline popeye

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3658
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2018, 08:32:51 AM »
Icons also compensate for different monitor size and resolution.
KONG

Where is Major Kong?!?

Offline flippz

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 704
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2018, 08:33:36 AM »
Winger I like the 1000ft rule for plane Id. It would make more exciting fights and less of a chance for people to run from fights. 

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9423
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2018, 08:52:48 AM »
In the AVA they used to run "no icon" nights. Was fun for awhile but extremely hard to deal with if it was on a regular basis. In real life you can ID pretty far out in weather such as ours in-game. The icon is to makeup for the small views and pixels.


Don't listen to a bomber pilot.  (Scowls at Shuffler.) 

The AvA ran no-enemy-icons, 24-7, for years.  May still, so far as I know.  It took about four hours of flight time to get used to it, but once you did, it made a colossal difference in how you flew and fought.  Real world tactics, that don't matter much with icons, suddenly made sense. 

It also engendered years of arguing on these boards, always heated, sometimes ugly.  In the end, neither side was convinced that the other side knew what it was talking about. 

I mention this so that you will be prepared for the tirade that you have brought down upon yourself.

- oldman

Offline Vraciu

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 14141
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2018, 09:13:05 AM »
Warbirds tried this.  It killed the game overnight. 
”KILLER V”
Charter Member of the P-51 Mustang Skin Mafia
- THE DAMNED -
King of the Hill Champ Tour 219 - Win Percentage 100
"1v1 Skyyr might be the best pilot ever to play the game." - Via PM, Name Redacted

Offline The Fugitive

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17934
      • Fugi's Aces Help
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2018, 09:22:59 AM »
I think your biggest problem is lack of experience in the game. 2 years, full time, is a relatively short amount of time compared to some of these guys. I ran your numbers and under the winger1 name you have just over 40 hours in game over the last 6 months. Many of the guys playing do that every week. My point is, with that kind of experience most of these guys can fly a brick against anyone and win, the plane type doesn't matter.

Knowing the plane type due to the icon may be hurting your fighting, if the first thing you do when you see YAK and go "awww crap, I cant beat that!". Any plane can beat any plane, it comes down to pilot/player skill more than anything. If your getting frustrated in the MA (welcome to the club!  :D ) you might want to get with a trainer to help you pick up on some of those skills you might be lacking in beating the yaks,spits and la's. One of the guys I fly with likes to fly the pony. When you call out to him that he has a spit behind him he laughs and says "hes no threat, its just a spit."

As others have said, icons compensate for the lack of real world clarity we have with computer monitors. Also, as we are playing a game in a big sandbox you could have any of 100 plane types coming at you so the icon also helps you setup a game plan on HOW your going to fight that player in the seconds you have to get ready.

Keep at it! Avoid going for the HO (it sets you up as an easy kill if you dont win the joust). Use your planes strengths and the enemies weaknesses for every fight. Practice your aim, you may only get one shot, make it count. Fly other planes to learn what they can and can not do that way when you meet up with them you can push them toward those things they cant do well. And most important of all, just have fun! It is a game.   

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27091
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2018, 10:40:35 AM »

Don't listen to a bomber pilot.  (Scowls at Shuffler.) 

- oldman

 :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

I have been away so long I could not remember clearly. Wait for when I get back. The comedy of my flying after being away so long should be entertaining for all. You might can sell tickets

SHOOT DOWN SHUFFLER
   $1.00 FIVE SHOTS
  LIMITED TIME OFFER

Brought to you by Oldman Interprises Inc.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Winger1

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 17
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2018, 12:13:30 PM »
I really hope that my post didn’t come across as whining because that wasn’t my intent at all, I still have lots of fun with the game and get at least a kill or two almost every night I play.

I’m okay with aircraft labels of some kind it just feels like they need to be racheted down somewhat. Yeah, you can see an aircraft, from far away but a small single seat fighter would be nearly impossible to positively ID as friend or foe until much closer. It makes perfect situational awareness WAY to easy IMO. I just think that making the labels dimmer, only having them come on at about 2k and only showing you range at 1k and closer would make you work harder to have to identify it; still possible just not so simple. I can flip my hat switch around an in 1 second and I’ve scanned the entire 5.5k radius around me for big red labels and a 5.5k radius is more than enough time to avoid danger. 1 second flick, no labels, I’m good. 1 second flick, see a big red label and I instantly know everything about him except sub model. Scanning should be a little harder.

I have won many 1v1’s it’s just against a similar plane or one that’s worse. Most of the lower altitude dogfights are dominated by a few select types. I saw the same thing when I used to play Pacific Fighters online years ago; huge selection of planes and everyone is in a Ki-84 or a Spit 16. I understand that some planes are just going to be inherently better than others and thus more popular as that was very much the case in real life, but then again it wasn’t so easy to have perfect SA all the time.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 12:52:22 PM by Winger1 »

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6996
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2018, 12:47:14 PM »
I wish for the icons for variants to be the same.

I want the mossie bomber and fighter to have the same icon.

I want the 110g and 110c to have the same icon.

I want all the yak to say "yak".

I'm cool with how the tempest/tyhpoon icons work since they look very similar at a distance.

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27091
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2018, 12:50:45 PM »
I really hope that my post didn’t come across as whining because that wasn’t my intent at all, I still have lots of fun with the game and get at least a kill or two almost every night I play.



I sure did not think it was a whine. We all state our opinion.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Bizman

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9606
Re: The problem with AH aircraft labels
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2018, 12:55:51 PM »
I wish they'd also put the pilot's name and fighter rank on the label so I could avoid those that are better than me. Oh, wait, no! That would mean that those even less skilled than I would turn around their ponies and tempests and run when seeing my 109-G6 with gondolas, taking away the few kills I otherwise might get.

Discussion is a good way to weigh arguments.  :salute
Quote from: BaldEagl, applies to myself, too
I've got an older system by today's standards that still runs the game well by my standards.

Kotisivuni