Author Topic: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying  (Read 1476 times)

Offline Puma44

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If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« on: November 03, 2018, 10:58:59 AM »
While at the 36th TFS, Osan AB, ROK, I learned volumes about aerial combat, dogfighting, and edge of the envelope flying in the Phantom.  One of the first things taught to me about dogfighting by the “old heads”,was that if you’re not cheatin, you ain’t tryin.  Basically, this meant all things are fair when it’s either you or that commie pr**k from up north when the balloon goes up (war time and fights on) and you were nose to nose for the initial merge.   Let him die for his country, was the mantra.  So, ingenuity, imagination, deception, and vicious overwhelming force were in order.

We typically bumped heads, i.e. Phantom v Phantom on a daily basis.  Not a great MIG simulation but, all we had to work with.  These were usually 1 V 1 or 2 V 2 setups.  We would split up with 40 to 60 miles of separation, call “Ready” and “Fights On”.  GCI (Callsign at Osan was “Blue Boy”) was usually involved to give them practice working against a threat from the north.  With an initial vector from Blue Boy (reminds me of a story about a bubble check for later) to get us pointed in the right direction, we would go from cruise power to MIL to full AB in one smooth motion.  The twin J79s would do this all day and never hesitate.  The WSOs (Weapons System Officers in the back seat) would sort target(s), provide vectors, and additional visual lookout for the merge and conversion.

A typical mission was briefed for a full up weapons load out (simulated), 4 X Radar missiles, 4 x IR missiles, and THE GUN.  As we built up speed, transitioned through the Mach, and positioned for turning room at the merge, the WSOs had us locked for a Fox 1 (Radar Missile) in the lips. Fox 1 was called over the radio as it happened and then it was time to bleed airspeed for the initial turn and merge.  A lot of Gs here as the turning fight developed and each jet jockeyed for a good Heater (IR Missile) Fox 2.  These were more difficult in a hard turning fight because the IR seeker head had a limited field of view.  As the seeker head started detecting a heat source we would get a sort of deep hissing sound in our helmet ear cups.  When it had a good solid heat source it would transition to a solid growl.  At that point it was time to let it fly, if within proper launch range.

Check out this link for a listen to the IR growl and how the missle operates.  https://youtu.be/axPJcdvJxLs

During the merge part of the engagement, we transitioned from supersonic to subsonic, still with several hundred knots of airspeed, to a turning and most of the time vertical rolling scissors maneuver (commonly referred to as getting in the phone booth for a knife fight) that most often ended up with little to no speed on the airspeed indicator, in full AB.  Now it was a waiting game and advanced handling event. 


In initial MR (mission ready) training at Osan, my IP taught me to get a notch of flaps out as soon as airspeed limit would allow, stay in full AB, and park at deep six and close in on the other guy’s burner cans, as he tried to out climb us.  In this position the other dude could not see us and would start getting antsy trying to figure out where we were and what we were doing.  Eventually, he would roll slightly for a peek and/or run out of airspeed and start to fall off in the vertical.  Since I already had a notch of flaps out, my jet was slightly more controllable than his.  At this point, it was a matter of an unloaded push of the stick and rudder to rotate down in the vertical as he was falling in full AB, trying to gain enough airspeed to maneuver against us.  As we pointed down at his glowing orange tailpipes, the IR tone was a steady and robust growl.  Fox 2, Kill, or if feeling especially vicious, gun his brains out.

As more guys learned this trick, the challenge was who would be the first to get that first notch of flaps out.  Fighter pilots always want to be first.  Going vertical in the phone booth was great fun and a great test of aircraft handling skills.

Then there was explaining to the crew chief why the stabilators were covered with black exhaust stain.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 11:06:18 AM by Puma44 »



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Offline 1stpar3

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2018, 03:46:55 PM »
NOW THATS A STORY! Well..I didnt feel like I was gonna freeze to death before the ACTION got good! Starting to see a familiar theme...Crew Chiefs remind me of my parents...No Dad, I didnt take your Toyota Tercel OFF ROAD.  :uhoh  That little thing was better than a 4x4! Straddled the ruts and with front wheel drive...oh my. I shuttled guys to the SIGHT(away from view for drinking fun) that got stuck, several times! Hey...5 bucks at the car wash and who would ever know :devil   No, Dad....it was WAY to muddy. Then 2 months later...." ADAm CURT! Get down here!" OH HELL... what did I do :uhoh  "Want to explain THIS"...hood is up and Oil filter box is setting on the bumper..layer of THICKish mud ALL OVER the underside of the hood and just about everything else under the hood :uhoh  "Didnt go Off ROad HUH?". The look on Mom's FACE...scared me beyond words :uhoh  Note to self.....go $5.75 next time and remember the under the hood wash!  :devil
"Life is short,break the rules,forgive quickly,kiss slowly,love truly,laugh uncontrollably,and never regret anything that made you smile."  “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”- Mark Twain

Offline Shuffler

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2018, 08:23:14 PM »
While at the 36th TFS, Osan AB, ROK, I learned volumes about aerial combat, dogfighting, and edge of the envelope flying in the Phantom.  One of the first things taught to me about dogfighting by the “old heads”,was that if you’re not cheatin, you ain’t tryin.  Basically, this meant all things are fair when it’s either you or that commie pr**k from up north when the balloon goes up (war time and fights on) and you were nose to nose for the initial merge.   Let him die for his country, was the mantra.  So, ingenuity, imagination, deception, and vicious overwhelming force were in order.

We typically bumped heads, i.e. Phantom v Phantom on a daily basis.  Not a great MIG simulation but, all we had to work with.  These were usually 1 V 1 or 2 V 2 setups.  We would split up with 40 to 60 miles of separation, call “Ready” and “Fights On”.  GCI (Callsign at Osan was “Blue Boy”) was usually involved to give them practice working against a threat from the north.  With an initial vector from Blue Boy (reminds me of a story about a bubble check for later) to get us pointed in the right direction, we would go from cruise power to MIL to full AB in one smooth motion.  The twin J79s would do this all day and never hesitate.  The WSOs (Weapons System Officers in the back seat) would sort target(s), provide vectors, and additional visual lookout for the merge and conversion.

A typical mission was briefed for a full up weapons load out (simulated), 4 X Radar missiles, 4 x IR missiles, and THE GUN.  As we built up speed, transitioned through the Mach, and positioned for turning room at the merge, the WSOs had us locked for a Fox 1 (Radar Missile) in the lips. Fox 1 was called over the radio as it happened and then it was time to bleed airspeed for the initial turn and merge.  A lot of Gs here as the turning fight developed and each jet jockeyed for a good Heater (IR Missile) Fox 2.  These were more difficult in a hard turning fight because the IR seeker head had a limited field of view.  As the seeker head started detecting a heat source we would get a sort of deep hissing sound in our helmet ear cups.  When it had a good solid heat source it would transition to a solid growl.  At that point it was time to let it fly, if within proper launch range.

Check out this link for a listen to the IR growl and how the missle operates.  https://youtu.be/axPJcdvJxLs

During the merge part of the engagement, we transitioned from supersonic to subsonic, still with several hundred knots of airspeed, to a turning and most of the time vertical rolling scissors maneuver (commonly referred to as getting in the phone booth for a knife fight) that most often ended up with little to no speed on the airspeed indicator, in full AB.  Now it was a waiting game and advanced handling event. 


In initial MR (mission ready) training at Osan, my IP taught me to get a notch of flaps out as soon as airspeed limit would allow, stay in full AB, and park at deep six and close in on the other guy’s burner cans, as he tried to out climb us.  In this position the other dude could not see us and would start getting antsy trying to figure out where we were and what we were doing.  Eventually, he would roll slightly for a peek and/or run out of airspeed and start to fall off in the vertical.  Since I already had a notch of flaps out, my jet was slightly more controllable than his.  At this point, it was a matter of an unloaded push of the stick and rudder to rotate down in the vertical as he was falling in full AB, trying to gain enough airspeed to maneuver against us.  As we pointed down at his glowing orange tailpipes, the IR tone was a steady and robust growl.  Fox 2, Kill, or if feeling especially vicious, gun his brains out.

As more guys learned this trick, the challenge was who would be the first to get that first notch of flaps out.  Fighter pilots always want to be first.  Going vertical in the phone booth was great fun and a great test of aircraft handling skills.

Then there was explaining to the crew chief why the stabilators were covered with black exhaust stain.

Another entertaining story.   :aok
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S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline 1ijac

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 01:31:17 AM »
Thanks for sharing Puma

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Offline Puma44

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 09:16:09 AM »
Thanks for sharing Puma

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You’re welcome.  Glad you enjoy the fun memories.



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Offline scott66

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2018, 08:14:52 PM »
Great stuff puma!! I was actually stationed at kunsan AB..86-87 I was an SP so I guarded flight lines and WSAs hated Korea lol open sewer trenches, hot muggy Summers bitter cold Winters and seemed like Everytime I left the barracks I would have to be in chem gear.. But got to go TDY to Clark AB PI.. For team spirit
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Offline Puma44

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2018, 10:56:08 PM »
Great stuff puma!! I was actually stationed at kunsan AB..86-87 I was an SP so I guarded flight lines and WSAs hated Korea lol open sewer trenches, hot muggy Summers bitter cold Winters and seemed like Everytime I left the barracks I would have to be in chem gear.. But got to go TDY to Clark AB PI.. For team spirit

Thanks Scott!  I went through the Kune a couple of times while stationed a Osan.  Made Osan look like a resort.

Gag!  Chem warfare gear is the worst.  Way worse than the infamous “poopy suit”.



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Offline Puma44

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2018, 09:36:07 AM »
Great stuff puma!! I was actually stationed at kunsan AB..86-87 I was an SP so I guarded flight lines and WSAs hated Korea lol open sewer trenches, hot muggy Summers bitter cold Winters and seemed like Everytime I left the barracks I would have to be in chem gear.. But got to go TDY to Clark AB PI.. For team spirit

I was fortunate to do two deployments to Clark during my one year remote to Osan (83-84). Great fun flying down there. Also got to do two live missle shots (AIM-9P and AIM-7F) while at Clark. 

Yeah, the weather in Korea pretty much banged either extreme end of the suckage meter most of the time.



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Offline 1stpar3

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2018, 12:35:58 PM »
I was fortunate to do two deployments to Clark during my one year remote to Osan (83-84). Great fun flying down there. Also got to do two live missle shots (AIM-9P and AIM-7F) while at Clark. 

Yeah, the weather in Korea pretty much banged either extreme end of the suckage meter most of the time.
:uhoh What was THAT experience like...shooting LIVE Missiles  :pray
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Offline scott66

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2018, 12:46:59 PM »
I was fortunate to do two deployments to Clark during my one year remote to Osan (83-84). Great fun flying down there. Also got to do two live missle shots (AIM-9P and AIM-7F) while at Clark. 

Yeah, the weather in Korea pretty much banged either extreme end of the suckage meter most of the time.
Clark was awesome..a case of real San Miguel beer not watered down for$5 lol jeepnees were fun.. We had to go to protect our f16s with the big ordinance strapped to them.. Only had one incident where I detained one drunk mechanic trying to gain access to somewhere he wasn't authorized other than that I tried a balute yeck..
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Offline colmbo

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2018, 12:54:41 PM »
Hey that sounds almost as fun as the young F-15 guy that managed to hit his CO with a live AIM-9.  If I recall correctly they were moving the jets to a remote alert station and worked in some BCM/ACM along the way with perhaps a bit of switchology issues.  They were both able to land the airplanes.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2018, 02:29:27 PM »
:uhoh What was THAT experience like...shooting LIVE Missiles  :pray

Yeah, especially the AIM-7F.  Our squadron showed up at the right time and were given the first live AIM-7F shot in PACAF.  The F was new to the F-4s in PACAF. Our Ops Officer decided that we would draw straws for the first shot.  Guess who drew the short straw?  More on that later.



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Offline eagl

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2018, 02:31:33 PM »
Some F-15 drivers would use flaps for the close-in knife fight.  F-15E squadrons generally prohibited pilots from doing the same though.  It could make a fairly big difference if a fight was stagnated and you were out of ideas.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 02:37:24 PM »
Some F-15 drivers would use flaps for the close-in knife fight.  F-15E squadrons generally prohibited pilots from doing the same though.  It could make a fairly big difference if a fight was stagnated and you were out of ideas.

As I remember, stateside, F-4 crews were specifically prohibited from using any flap setting for air to air maneuvering.  As it always happens, somebody probably screwed it up and a new “reg” was issued to prevent that from ever happening again.  PACAF had no such restriction.



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Offline Puma44

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Re: If Ya Ain’t Cheatin, Ya Ain’t Trying
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2018, 02:39:08 PM »
Hey that sounds almost as fun as the young F-15 guy that managed to hit his CO with a live AIM-9.  If I recall correctly they were moving the jets to a remote alert station and worked in some BCM/ACM along the way with perhaps a bit of switchology issues.  They were both able to land the airplanes.

Curious as to what new Tactical Callsign the youngster was assigned after that.



All gave some, Some gave all