Navy Pilot Shoots Down 4 Soviet MIGs

[Vraciu]

Sounds persuasive...but...um...what is the source...?

- oldmanyakov

Search for it. 

There is plenty of corroboration.   

[Oldman731]

Search for it. 

There is plenty of corroboration.

Well, I did that.  The quote appears in Wiki, and in any number of web sites that exactly quote the Wiki quote.  I'm just missing the Russian sources that confirmed it.

- oldmanovich

[Vraciu]

Well, I did that.  The quote appears in Wiki, and in any number of web sites that exactly quote the Wiki quote.  I'm just missing the Russian sources that confirmed it.

- oldmanovich

That's not a quote from Wiki.   Just saying. 

There are dozens of sources to confirm the claim.   The US NAVY credits him with four.    Russian sources confirm it.    Case closed as far as I'm concerned. 

[2bighorn]

Well, I did that.  The quote appears in Wiki, and in any number of web sites that exactly quote the Wiki quote.  I'm just missing the Russian sources that confirmed it.

- oldmanovich

Hey Oldman!

The Wikipedia source is an article published in Flight Journal, June 2013, written by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver. Subsequently, story was published by few other magazines by different authors (Warren Thompson, etc), but basically it remains the same, all stating that Russians confirmed 4 Mig15 pilots being shot down that day by Panthers. And their sole source for that claim was Capt Royce Williams himself.

Williams probably did a lot of research himself, and probably made a mistake, which was easy to make.

Official Russian sources, when released, were mess. It took a long time before all the relevant data was compiled, sorted and cleaned of inaccuracies by historians.

Anyway, Russian pilots shot down by Williams and Middleton flew out of Zolotaya Dolina airbase, about 60 miles east of Vladivostok, where 781st IAP was based at the time.
The pilots killed that day (according to official Russian sources, cross checked by reputable researchers) were Senior Lieutenant Beliakov, Senior Lieutenant Pakhomkin and Senior Lieutenant Vandaev.
This correspond with US Navy claims of 2 confirmed and 1 probable.

So where did claim of 4th kill came from (Tarshinov)?
As said previously, early Russian sources were riddled with mistakes and according to those, Captain Tarshinov flew Mig 15 and was shot down on November 18, 1952 by US Navy Task Force 77 F9F Panther.
Mr. Williams most likely had access to that early data which resulted in conclusion of 4 Migs shot down, and consequent story tweaking is probably result of failing memories and confirmation bias. Which is understandable.
Besides, some other researches did the same mistake.

If we cross check Captain Tarshinov against the corrected and reputable Russian sources, he flew in 139th GIAP (not 781st IAP), stationed in China (Not USSR), shot down on 18th November, 1950 (not 1952) by F9F-2 (not F9F-5) from most likely USS Philippine Sea/CV-47 which was in Yellow Sea at the time (not from USS Oriskany/CVA-34).

So, 3 kills it is.

Now, the question remains, did Williams shot down all 3? One falsely credited to Middleton?
Well, if you believe LCDR Stanley R. Holm, who was Williams commanding officer, he recollects after action reports of Lt. Royce Williams, Lt. (jg) Dave Rowlands, Lt. Claire Elwood and Lt.(jg) John Middleton a little bit differently.

Edited gun cam? I doubt. NSA confirmed 3kills, one of them only probable (and not 3 + 1 probable).

After all is said and done, few inconsistencies in Williams recollection should not detract  from the fact that all 3 of them (Elwood had to return to carrier) fought bravely and deserve big 

Russian sources confirm it.

Could you name a few? To compare notes...

[Vraciu]

^^^^^No.   I have way bigger fish to fry.  You guys hash it out with my blessing. 

Two, three, four.  Whatever.   I wasn't there.  Impressive by any measure. 

[MiloMorai]

Hey Oldman!

The Wikipedia source is an article published in Flight Journal, June 2013, written by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver. Subsequently, story was published by few other magazines by different authors (Warren Thompson, etc), but basically it remains the same, all stating that Russians confirmed 4 Mig15 pilots being shot down that day by Panthers. And their sole source for that claim was Capt Royce Williams himself.

Williams probably did a lot of research himself, and probably made a mistake, which was easy to make.

Official Russian sources, when released, were mess. It took a long time before all the relevant data was compiled, sorted and cleaned of inaccuracies by historians.

Anyway, Russian pilots shot down by Williams and Middleton flew out of Zolotaya Dolina airbase, about 60 miles east of Vladivostok, where 781st IAP was based at the time.
The pilots killed that day (according to official Russian sources, cross checked by reputable researchers) were Senior Lieutenant Beliakov, Senior Lieutenant Pakhomkin and Senior Lieutenant Vandaev.
This correspond with US Navy claims of 2 confirmed and 1 probable.

So where did claim of 4th kill came from (Tarshinov)?
As said previously, early Russian sources were riddled with mistakes and according to those, Captain Tarshinov flew Mig 15 and was shot down on November 18, 1952 by US Navy Task Force 77 F9F Panther.
Mr. Williams most likely had access to that early data which resulted in conclusion of 4 Migs shot down, and consequent story tweaking is probably result of failing memories and confirmation bias. Which is understandable.
Besides, some other researches did the same mistake.

If we cross check Captain Tarshinov against the corrected and reputable Russian sources, he flew in 139th GIAP (not 781st IAP), stationed in China (Not USSR), shot down on 18th November, 1950 (not 1952) by F9F-2 (not F9F-5) from most likely USS Philippine Sea/CV-47 which was in Yellow Sea at the time (not from USS Oriskany/CVA-34).

So, 3 kills it is.

Now, the question remains, did Williams shot down all 3? One falsely credited to Middleton?
Well, if you believe LCDR Stanley R. Holm, who was Williams commanding officer, he recollects after action reports of Lt. Royce Williams, Lt. (jg) Dave Rowlands, Lt. Claire Elwood and Lt.(jg) John Middleton a little bit differently.

Edited gun cam? I doubt. NSA confirmed 3kills, one of them only probable (and not 3 + 1 probable).

After all is said and done, few inconsistencies in Williams recollection should not detract  from the fact that all 3 of them (Elwood had to return to carrier) fought bravely and deserve big 

Thank you sir for not being a bung hole.


Could you name a few? To compare notes...

[Oldman731]

The Wikipedia source is an article published in Flight Journal, June 2013, written by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver. Subsequently, story was published by few other magazines by different authors (Warren Thompson, etc), but basically it remains the same, all stating that Russians confirmed 4 Mig15 pilots being shot down that day by Panthers. And their sole source for that claim was Capt Royce Williams himself.

Good work, bighorn!  Thank you.  The gun cam footage made a big difference, in WWII and ever after.

- oldman

[Vraciu]

How original.   

Multiple sources cite four losses.   The only questions are the name of the fourth pilot (Tarshinov) and was it due to Williams or another factor.   The Navy maintains an official victory list.    Gotta be something there.   


(Debating three victories vs. four in a 7v1 is beyond laughable.)

[BuckShot]

My sources say 5 kills.

[Vraciu]

My sources say 5 kills.

What does Magic 8-Ball ray?

[2bighorn]

Multiple sources cite four losses.

All of these sources are just quoting Williams.

All Russian sources I've seen list 3 or less.
Example:

The only questions are the name of the fourth pilot (Tarshinov) and was it due to Williams or another factor.

There's no question that Tarshinov got killed on November 18. It was just two years prior. I couldn't find any other Tarshinov on any list. Official or unofficial.

The Navy maintains an official victory list.    Gotta be something there. 

US Navy does not maintain "official" list of aerial victories. Never did. Every once in a while The Naval Historical Center compiles "unofficial" list which is based on various records. If ever something major crops out due to docs being "declassified", they make corrections, or not... It's mostly on historians to figure it out. So far, records remain. And if changed, then Rowlands will probably get credited with 1 kill too.

(Debating three victories vs. four in a 7v1 is beyond laughable.)

Why would debating history in search of facts be laughable?

It never was 1 vs 7.

According to our side:
It was 2 (Williams & Rowlands) vs 7. Then it was 1 vs 5 briefly, 2 vs 5, 3 (Middleton returns) vs 5, 3 vs 4 (Middleton kills one). At that time it was over (Holm closes in).

Russian side maintains the claim that it was only 4 MIGs and Panthers jumped them. Two MIGs had to leave early due to the damage (Pakhomkin had a fuel leak, ditched in the sea and drowned). Two left behind (Beliakov, Vandaev) were shot down.

[Arlo]

This seems to have drifted from recognizing Capt. Williams as a noteworthy person to a contest to who can best prove him to either be an honest individual or a dedicated liar.

[2bighorn]

...contest to who can best prove him to either be an honest individual or a dedicated liar.

Only you could come to such a conclusion.

Since dawn of air combat, differences between number of victories claimed by pilots and number of confirmed victories were common for various reasons.

Do you really think all the record keepers, military officials, historians, researcher and history enthusiasts were trying to prove pilots to be "dedicated" liars? Do you?

Another thing. If you're convinced that MiloMorai and I are calling Mr. Williams a "dedicated" liar, than grow a pair and call us out directly. Or, if you're sticking with vague hints at who that may be, then show the same moderation with your pompous phrases such as "honest individual" or a dedicated liar".

Merry Christmas

[Vraciu]

All of these sources are just quoting Williams.

<Munch>

It never was 1 vs 7.

The Panther lead and his wingman left due to some mechanical issue.    That left Williams with a wingman who couldn't fire his guns.    That's one against seven.    Or six.   Or five.

[Arlo]

All the record fishing and challenging in the world won't wipe the tears of those who came here to to seek attention for their 'historian/bean counter' ability but didn't receive the accolade they were expecting. Feel free to take it personal. You should. The message was neither hidden nor a mystery.

Merry holidays yerownself.