Author Topic: More MAX information  (Read 40119 times)

Offline Busher

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #45 on: March 16, 2019, 12:17:40 PM »
Has it been verified that the First Officer only had 200 hours of total flying time? That is too ridiculous to believe.
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Offline Toad

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2019, 12:18:02 PM »
fly the jet.

A very, very important piece of the puzzle and a phrase that is heard QUITE often from the instructor while one is learning a new aircraft.
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Offline Toad

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #47 on: March 16, 2019, 12:19:37 PM »
Has it been verified that the First Officer only had 200 hours of total flying time? That is too ridiculous to believe.

It IS beyond belief that ANY airline management would do that.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Puma44

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #48 on: March 16, 2019, 12:19:49 PM »
Has it been verified that the First Officer only had 200 hours of total flying time? That is too ridiculous to believe.

Yeah, that suggests a constant single pilot scenario for the Captain even during routine ops.

From a Business Insider article (yeah, new media):

“Its captain was Yared Getachew, who had more than 8,000 hours of flying experience, according to Ethiopian Airlines. In the copilot seat was someone with considerably less experience, Ahmed Nur Mohammod, who had just 200 hours of experience.“
« Last Edit: March 16, 2019, 12:48:59 PM by Puma44 »



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Offline Toad

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #49 on: March 16, 2019, 12:36:49 PM »
Well, if you can trust the Beeb, apparently the CEO gave a press conference with some details and the airline made statements about the crew.

It would seem the 200 hours thing is correct.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47513508

Quote
The pilot was named as Senior Captain Yared Getachew who had a "commendable performance" with more than 8,000 hours in the air, the airline said.

The plane's First Officer Ahmed Nur Mohammod Nur had 200 flight hours, it added.

200 hours? Things that make you scratch your head and wonder why.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vraciu

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #50 on: March 16, 2019, 12:52:54 PM »
Well, if you can trust the Beeb, apparently the CEO gave a press conference with some details and the airline made statements about the crew.

It would seem the 200 hours thing is correct.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47513508

200 hours? Things that make you scratch your head and wonder why.

It is a very common thing in second and third world countries. 

Some of the students I trained in Primary were off flying A300s, MD-80s, DC-9s, etc. in Mexico with around 200 hours while I was still slaving away in 152s to get my 1000 hours/100 multi for the Regionals.
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Offline Puma44

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #51 on: March 16, 2019, 12:55:40 PM »
It IS beyond belief that ANY airline management would do that.

Indeed.  That scenario puts a lot of unecssary pressure on the Captain.



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Offline Busher

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #52 on: March 16, 2019, 12:58:10 PM »
Well, if you can trust the Beeb, apparently the CEO gave a press conference with some details and the airline made statements about the crew.

It would seem the 200 hours thing is correct.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47513508

200 hours? Things that make you scratch your head and wonder why.

I wonder how an airline management could claim to be a world class safe operation while they allow this. As I am sure you all know, you cannot hold a professional license in Canada (not certain about the USA) with less than 250 hours... and that barely allows the pilot to instruct on a cessna. Where is the Instrument Training? Where is the Multi Engine Training??
Years ago Garuda Indonesian Airlines suffered a world wide ban for this type of action. It took them sometime to clear their reputation but they did so quite properly.
With 200 hours, this individual would have no clue; but we continue to lay the blame on the airplane?
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Offline MiloMorai

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #53 on: March 16, 2019, 01:01:27 PM »
Is that total flight time or total flight on type?

Offline Toad

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #54 on: March 16, 2019, 01:06:47 PM »
Given the context, that would be total flight time.

Note what they said about the Captain, "with more than 8,000 hours in the air,".

Granted, that is an inference and not necessarily the case. However, they (the airline) are presenting times as time in the air without any type reference or other specificity.

Just one more thing to wait for while they come up with a Preliminary and later Final.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #55 on: March 16, 2019, 01:19:43 PM »
Just a bit of info to make a valid comparison for those not familiar with the regs:

Quote
Requirements for airline first officers (SICs)

The FAA changed the rules for first officers - announcing new requirements on July 10, 2013. In short, on August 1, 2013, the FAA requires SIC's to hold an Airline Transport Pilot Certificate (ATP), but the certificate may have restricted privileges. An ATP with restricted privileges requires you to:

Be 21 years old
Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate with an Instrument Rating
Complete an Airline Transport Pilot Certification Training Program (ATP CTP)
Pass the ATP knowledge and practical test
And meet the flight time requirements of FAR 61.160 - roughly 1,500 hours

(Note: There are a few ways to reduce the number of required (1500) hours:)

Quote
Military pilots need only 750 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time

Graduates from approved four-year universities with a Bachelor's degree and an aviation major need only 1000 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time if they:
     Complete at least 60 credit hours of aviation related coursework, and
     Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate that was earned through the university's part 141 training program
     If they complete less than 60 credit hours, but at least 30 credit hours, they need 1250 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time         

Graduates from approved two-year colleges with an Associate's degree and an aviation major need only 1250 hours total flight time and 200 hours cross-country time if they:
     Complete at least 30 credit hours of aviation related coursework, and
     Hold a Commercial Pilot Certificate that was earned through the school's part 141 training program.

Other pilots need 1500 hours total time and 200 hours cross-country time
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Puma44

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #56 on: March 17, 2019, 10:44:07 AM »
Given the context, that would be total flight time.

Note what they said about the Captain, "with more than 8,000 hours in the air,".

Granted, that is an inference and not necessarily the case. However, they (the airline) are presenting times as time in the air without any type reference or other specificity.

Just one more thing to wait for while they come up with a Preliminary and later Final.

It would be interesting to see a break down of both the Captain and FO “in the air” flying time.



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Offline Zimme83

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #57 on: March 17, 2019, 11:58:53 AM »


From Ethiopian Airlines.

Its the same regulations as in the US prior to 2013 and as far as i know U.S aviation was considered safe before that..
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Offline Zimme83

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #58 on: March 17, 2019, 12:20:33 PM »
This is a bit disturbing. If it's as bad as this article say there must be a few people that are in the risk of losing their jobs:
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/failed-certification-faa-missed-safety-issues-in-the-737-max-system-implicated-in-the-lion-air-crash/
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Offline eagl

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Re: More MAX information
« Reply #59 on: March 17, 2019, 01:13:10 PM »
I've been flying the MAX for a year now.

In this thread, Vraciu is pretty much correct.  Almost all the arguments against him are either deliberately mis-interpreting his posts (like brainiac #1 who equated saying a 200 hour FO probably sucks and all African pilots suck), or the regurgitating of sensationalist prattle about how "the SoFtWaReZ be crashing deh plainz!".

MCAS is a good feature.  The 737 doesn't have a stick pusher, but the new motors on the MAX give it a nose-up pitching tendency when in the stall.  The reasonable answer is to run a little nose-down trim in there.  The implementation could have been done better and Boeing did a truly awful job failing to highlight it in MAX differences training, since a single sensor failure can cause it to activate inappropriately.

HOWEVER, runaway trim is runaway trim.  Any pilot who flies a plane with any sort of power assisted trim should know instinctively how to quickly turn off the damn trim system.  I knew and practiced this when I had less than 40 hours because I received instruction in a plane with electric pitch trim.  The instructor, 30+ years ago when I was a pup, told me you first attempt to trim opposite of the runaway trim, and while doing that you go for the trim disconnect switch or circuit breaker.  That procedure has applied in every single plane I've every flown in, both military and civilian, and it's pretty much the same procedure in all variants of the 737 including the MAX.  This is airmanship 101 type stuff.

Activating the trim switch on the yoke should temporarily halt MCAS inputs.  So a simple press of the trim switch nose-up should temporarily turn off MCAS inputs.  If after the reset period expires the trim starts running nose down again, then trim opposite it with the trim switch again and then also use the stab trim disconnect switches.  Once more, this is piloting 101, something that should be taught and practiced before ever flying any real aircraft with powered trim.

The only real difference in the MAX is that the implementation of MCAS could cause runaway trim with a single AOA sensor failure.  That's not a good design, but the effect of the malfunction is still a runaway trim situation that any pilot flying anything more complicated than a Cessna 172 should be able to deal with in their sleep.

200 hour FO?  Maybe 350 hrs depending on who you ask. Yea.  You get what you pay for and sometimes being cheap kills you.  That's no different than paying a dive master with no wreck or deep diving experience to take you to a wreck 200 ft down. Some endeavors in life are simply not safe unless you have quite a bit of experience, and flying is one of them. The crash is a tragedy but the real story is to use this horrific accident as one more reason why the US experience standards must remain in place in spite of concerted efforts by certain groups to eliminate the 1500 hour ATP requirement.  Zimme you posted about how US standards used to be, but we changed them for a damn good reason and this latest crash further justifies our rules change.

I'd fly the MAX tomorrow if I was scheduled for it.  There's no mystical software bug, the automation isn't overriding the pilot, etc etc.  The MAX has a new system that needs tweaking because as it is, a single sensor failure can cause runaway trim.  The good news is that correcting runaway trim is no different in the MAX than in any other conventional aircraft with powered trim.  You attempt to counter it, and disconnect the trim system.  The fact that 2 crews appear to have utterly failed to perform this basic procedure (yes I know findings aren't released) is a pretty harsh lesson about how much experience and training it takes to safely fly any airline not just the 737.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:54:51 PM by eagl »
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