Author Topic: Another 737 down  (Read 35427 times)

Offline DaveBB

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Another 737 down
« on: May 04, 2019, 07:28:51 AM »
This time it is a 737-800 with no reported fatalities.  It ended up in the St. Johns River in Jacksonville, Florida.

See attached link

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/04/us/jacksonville-plane-skids-into-river/index.html
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2019, 07:33:52 AM »
It landed and ran through the runway. Nothing like the other two.

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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2019, 09:53:12 AM »
MCAS and stuff!!   :old:

 :eek:

(Down?   Exaggerate much?)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2019, 10:28:00 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2019, 09:54:30 AM »
It landed and ran through the runway. Nothing like the other two.

Yep.  Looks like a wet runway overrun. 

Let’s blame Boeing!
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Offline Toad

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2019, 11:46:36 AM »
An example we use regarding landing performance in a popular corporate jet:

10,000 foot runway with a computed landing roll of 4,000 feet.

The additions due to not being on speed and in the slot and just letting it land:

Extra 5 knots over the threshold adds 250 feet.

Extra 10 feet over the threshold adds 200 feet.

Extended flare going for the "grease job" adds 1250 feet.

Extra two seconds delay in braking adds 920 feet.

So just those few changes add 2,620 to the landing roll. Gets worse if you are faster/higher over the threshold.

Add in missing the touchdown zone and pretty soon you are getting skosh on runway remaining.

I'm guessing we will eventually find out this one was a long landing with some or all of the above factors. A tailwind factor would make it worse as well.

Which just goes to prove this was all Boeing's fault.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2019, 11:54:46 AM »
Good thing they had a training exercise that day!

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Offline saggs

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2019, 12:40:54 PM »
Can someone give me the cliff notes version of where the whole Ethiopia crash investigation is at? I haven't kept up, and I don't want to sift through all the mainstream media BS, from people who don't know a airbus from a aeronca.

I understand there is an issue with the AOA/MCAS, which led to uncommanded stabilizer trim movement/stall recovery action. But I still don't understand why the pilots were unable to just flip the trim motor cutout switches and trim it manually.  :headscratch: Has that part of the accident chain been explained yet?

I mean, for as long as there has been motorized pitch trim on aircraft, the SOP has been. "If it runs away, turn it OFF."  In a 737 you don't even have to turn it off, just grabbing the trim wheel will do.


Online Devil 505

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2019, 01:03:26 PM »
Extra 10 feet over the threshold adds 200 feet.

Can you explain the logic behind this one?

How does touching down 10 feet beyond threshold equate in stopping 200 feet further than if touchdown occurred at the threshold?
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Offline Toad

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2019, 01:33:54 PM »
Can you explain the logic behind this one?

How does touching down 10 feet beyond threshold equate in stopping 200 feet further than if touchdown occurred at the threshold?

First of all, (on a runway with an instrument approach) the "bullseye" in the TDZ (Touchdown Zone) is the big white 1000' markers. If you google up images of touchdown zone markings you'll see these usually marked as the aiming point. Practical Test Standards allow touchdown 250 short of or 500 feet past the big solid white markers.

So it's not _beyond_ the threshold, it's above the threshold or TCH (Threshold Crossing Height). I should have been more clear; sorry.

Standard for that aircraft and many others is to be 50' high crossing the threshold.

So if your TCH is 60' instead of the prescribed 50' that extra ten feet high will add 200 feet to your rollout.

Similarly, in that aircraft you fly the approach at Vref + 5kts and then reduce power so as to cross the threshold at Vref. If you are still doing Vref + 5, then you are adding 250 feet to your rollout.

The FAA is adding emphasis to all of this due to runway excursions on landing roll.
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Online Devil 505

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2019, 03:09:46 PM »
Thanks. That makes more sense.
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Offline Toad

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2019, 04:14:43 PM »
Can someone give me the cliff notes version of where the whole Ethiopia crash investigation is at?

About a 18 months or so there will be a final report listing causal factors.
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Offline DaveBB

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2019, 04:21:37 PM »
See rule #4
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 08:56:34 AM by hitech »
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Offline Toad

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2019, 04:34:50 PM »
Funny the guy on the Lion Air jumpseat knew what to do though, isn't it?

We'll just agree to disagree.

The MCAS didn't kill them.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2019, 04:56:41 PM »
« Last Edit: May 06, 2019, 08:57:01 AM by hitech »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Another 737 down
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2019, 05:09:52 PM »
Funny the guy on the Lion Air jumpseat knew what to do though, isn't it?

We'll just agree to disagree.

The MCAS didn't kill them.


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