Devil comments

[Guppy35]

If you want some fun Brooke, go to this link on the 340th BG website:

http://57thbombwing.com/340th_History/487th_History/missions/340thMissions_index.htm

It's their mission index and each is a link that gives the detail of each mission, the crews and the serial numbers of the B-25s flown.  First 25J I could find was in May 44.

For the scenario stuff those missions might be some inspiration

[Brooke]

If you want some fun Brooke, go to this link on the 340th BG website:

That is a good reference, thanks.

All I'm saying is this:  there was a significant number of B-25J's at some point between Jan-June, 1944 in XII Bomber Command.  So, May is fine.

With regard to your reference, mostly they don't refer to what type of B-25 they were flying.  So, seeing the first mention of a B-25 variant doesn't mean that's the first time it was ever used.  Also, they say, "The missions listed below are only those for which we have photos of the target."  I noticed that when I saw there were missions listed in December 2, 1943 but then next is March 10, 1944.

Here is another site of many pictures of B-25's, specifically of the 340th BG.  "B-25 Photos from Charles Cook’s Photo Collection, Edited by his son Doug Cook. . . . These B-25 Bombers were primarily B-25 J Models."  Charles Cook was a B-25 pilot in the 340th BG.
https://www.reddog1944.com/340th%20BG%20487th%20BS%20PLANES.htm

Some of the B-25J pictures, with mission # and date:
340th BG 487th BS - SN 43-32704 - 7A    “MY NAKED ASS”, mission 6, April 13
340th BG 487th BS - SN 43-27656 - 7C "McKinley Jr. High", mission 19, May 19
340th BG 487th BS - SN 43-27556 - 7D, mission 4, April 3
340th BG 487th BS - SN 43-27540 - 7E WATCH COPIER, mission 32, June 6
340th BG 487th BS - SN 43-27510 - 7F WILLIE, mission 1, April 3
340th BG 487th BS - SN 43-27478 - 7J  YAHOUDI, mission 29, June 3

and others

So, B-25J's were there in enough numbers that most of the B-25's in a 340th BG pilot's photo collection, that spans from April onward, were J's.

[Guppy35]

And on that we can agree.  From April onward.  Again I'm not telling you to change the scenario, just clarifying when the Js got there.

[Brooke]

Rgr that, Corky.  Thanks for the additional info, details, thoughts, and references.

[swareiam]

 

[Vudu15]

Brooke has stated he doesn't care what planes are used and that's for the COs and the players to fight over....COs being also on the CM team so I can take a guess at how far that will go. You've burned and continue to burn the last remnant of veteran players you have with moves like this, and this is the primary reason I have all but left the game as well. It has been an obvious fact that in plane performance comparisons the CM team has been lackluster in decisions and implementation of what is comparable and somewhat fair.

Devil if you will recall my command decision on B26s during Tunisia was to completely ignore them as they were not worth the effort to chase and waste ammo on and are the IMO #1 issue bomber for the axis to deal with. I'm not saying they shouldn't be in the event but they should be weighted correctly against a "realistic" amount of ammo that the axis can drag into the sky.

You keep shooting ourselves in the feet with decisions like this and that will be the end of my comments on this.

Vudu15/Roen Mitchell

[Brooke]

Now, now -- don't get all curmudgeonly.  We've got the various plane types that were there (other than the A-36 Apache).  Grab one of those excellent 109's or 190's and join the fun! 

[perdue3]

CMs are COs this time because no one volunteered to be CO. Speaking from the Axis point of view, none of the very few players that have signed up volunteered to be the CO. Because a side needs a CO, the responsibility falls on the CMs. I did not want to be CO as I would prefer the player base lead itself. But, since no one wanted the job, it fell to my feet.

Your strategic assessment of the B-26 is spot on. In this scenario, I am afraid the Luftwaffe will be forced to take a very similar approach. The problem is, the Luftwaffe will certainly lose if we do not face the B-26's. Quite a difficult predicament. We could use some help.

 

[swareiam]

Your strategic assessment of the B-26 is spot on. In this scenario, I am afraid the Luftwaffe will be forced to take a very similar approach. The problem is, the Luftwaffe will certainly lose if we do not face the B-26's. Quite a difficult predicament. We could use some help.

 

This is player to player...

You're speaking to this instance as if FSO didn't just happen. The scenario bomber choices were the B-25C or the B-26B. As we saw from this past Friday night, the B-25s were slaughtered. They were laid upon the altar and sacrificed. How do I know this? Because I was there helping to slaughter that poor formation of bombers. The B-25s were all but defenseless as they ran headlong into the meat grinder that was the base CAP. The fighter escort striped away with BF110s baring down on them as they prepped to drop their bombs. There were 12 formations of B-25s that yielded a radar, one hangar, and 56 town objects. There was 1 in 12 formations that made it back to base. What bomber pilot wants to do that for three hours?

So now what I am continuing to hear is that the most lethal bomber killer(s) ever built are likely not to be able to hammer away at the B-26s until there all dead. I think I am hearing that no casualties should be taken even attempting to get at the bombers. The eight bomber pilots should be solely relying on the fighter escort for their protection. The bomber pilots don't have to do any work to be successful, just show up... A bunch of Hot Luftwaffe sticks with thousands of simulated combat flying hours in these same aircraft that already know how to intercept bombers through much trial and error, can't get the job done? I am hearing that the Luftwaffe can't win this thing. 

I think I am hearing this all wrong. I think what I am hearing is that, "NO MATTER WHAT THE ALLIES PUT UP, WE'RE KNOCKING IT DOWN".

Yeah, that's what I heard. I am pretty sure of it...

[Brooke]

You guys will do fine against the bombers.  They are easier than B-17's at 25k with a cloud of P-51's, P-47's, and P-38's over them at 34k, where 190's and 109's do just fine.  Heck, you guys are better pilots than I am, and I shot down seven B-17's in one frame of Big Week in my 109G-6.  You'll do fine. 

[Devil 505]

This is player to player...

You're speaking to this instance as if FSO didn't just happen. The scenario bomber choices were the B-25C or the B-26B. As we saw from this past Friday night, the B-25s were slaughtered. They were laid upon the altar and sacrificed. How do I know this? Because I was there helping to slaughter that poor formation of bombers. The B-25s were all but defenseless as they ran headlong into the meat grinder that was the base CAP. The fighter escort striped away with BF110s baring down on them as they prepped to drop their bombs. There were 12 formations of B-25s that yielded a radar, one hangar, and 56 town objects. There was 1 in 12 formations that made it back to base. What bomber pilot wants to do that for three hours?

So now what I am continuing to hear is that the most lethal bomber killer(s) ever built are likely not to be able to hammer away at the B-26s until there all dead. I think I am hearing that no casualties should be taken even attempting to get at the bombers. The eight bomber pilots should be solely relying on the fighter escort for their protection. The bomber pilots don't have to do any work to be successful, just show up... A bunch of Hot Luftwaffe sticks with thousands of simulated combat flying hours in these same aircraft that already know how to intercept bombers through much trial and error, can't get the job done? I am hearing that the Luftwaffe can't win this thing. 

I think I am hearing this all wrong. I think what I am hearing is that, "NO MATTER WHAT THE ALLIES PUT UP, WE'RE KNOCKING IT DOWN".

Yeah, that's what I heard. I am pretty sure of it...

Maybe you should also look at the B-25 frame from the Anzio FSO run 2 months ago.

10 B-25 pilots for 30 total planes. The Axis shot down just 18 and was awarded another kill for a crash. 19 out of 30 is not exactly a slaughter, and the plane set in the Anzio FSO is much better representative of what the Anzio scenario will be.

[swareiam]

Maybe you should also look at the B-25 frame from the Anzio FSO run 2 months ago.

10 B-25 pilots for 30 total planes. The Axis shot down just 18 and was awarded another kill for a crash. 19 out of 30 is not exactly a slaughter, and the plane set in the Anzio FSO is much better representative of what the Anzio scenario will be.

How many escorting Allied fighters were there in that FSO frame??

[Devil 505]

How many escorting Allied fighters were there in that FSO frame??

20 Jugs at 17-21K escorting all 10 sets of B-25's at 14K. Defense was four 190's and six 109G-6's


How was the B-25 attack last Friday organized?

[Brooke]

There are three reasons why B-25C's are not in the scenario.

First is that bomber pilots don't want to fly B-25C's anymore in scenarios.  That's a major issue because you guys who want B-25C's in scenarios will never fly them, fill them, or keep them full for the whole event.  I understand.  I've flown B-25C's a lot in events.  They suck.  Totally.  Even against Ki-43's they suck, let alone against 190's and 109's with gondolas.  B-25H's (and B-25J's, if we had them) are a very different matter, however.

Second is that, after about April-March, according to references I have, the B-25's were majority J's; and B-25J's and B-26's are about the same (about the same speed, same defensive armament).

Third is that half the medium bombers in XII Tactical Air Force were B-26's anyway.

Anyway, the good news is that you can consider all the bombers in this event to be B-25J's if you want. 

[Devil 505]

You still don't get it, Brooke.

All this discussion of B-25 this and B-25 that is just silly. I only mentioned the B-25 in my original post because in the context of THIS scenario, the scenario would suck less with the B-25 replacing the B-26.

But make no mistake, this scenario sucks with ANY bomber.