Author Topic: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features  (Read 2878 times)

Offline Saxman

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Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« on: December 04, 2019, 09:56:58 PM »
Here's another few more thoughts to inject some life and variety into the game:

Currently, the only thing really differentiating one aircraft from another is the raw performance data. Top speed, climb, acceleration, stall behavior, guns, etc. Other than that, operationally all of the aircraft are more or less the same. They all have the same subsystems and controls. Fuel management, flaps, trim, prop speed, etc. are all the same. On the one hand, sure, it makes it easier to hop from plane to plane. But you lose some of the aircraft's unique character.

For example: The Wildcats all had manually-operated gear, with a crank that required being turned 29 times to raise and lower the gear. In AH, it's done with the push of a button. While that may seem like a minor thing, other aircraft had more significant features.

Case in point: The N1K2-J had automatic combat flaps. The F4U and F6F had "blow up" flaps; rather than being locked in place, the flaps on the Corsair and Hellcat were controlled by a spring. The first two notches would automatically "blow up" if deployed above a certain airspeed, but then would drop again once the aircraft was below the speed again. And of course, there's the lead-computing sight used on later Mustangs.

So here's a comprehensive suggestion for remodeling of aircraft systems:

1) Implement complex engine management, in the following manner:
1a) Make this an "Opt-In" setting, like Stall Limiter and Engine Governor. If CEM is enabled, players have direct control over fuel mixture, propeller pitch, and cowl, radiator, and oil cooler flap positions, and supercharger speed. Players that leave CEM off can fly like they always have, but as with the Stall Limiter and Engine Governor, it prevents them from pushing the envelope. Players using CEM may be able to squeeze a few extra HP out of their engine by tweaking the mixture, or add a few feet per minute to their rate of climb by adjusting their propeller pitch, or eke out a few mph by closing their cowl flaps, or get an extra few miles of range with the right settings. All of this would come at the risk of over-revving the propeller, or overheating the engine (oh yeah, add engine overheats. Although the implementation should be less heavy-handed than in Il-2).
1b) Model management per aircraft. IE the Corsairs had four settings: Idle/Cutoff, Auto Lean, Auto Rich, and Emergency Rich (technically only three, because the latter was permanently disabled) so would not have fully manual mixture. While German aircraft would have their automatic propeller pitch (this would need to be distinguished in some manner from disabling CEM).

2) Combined with the above, consider remodeling WEP management, as not all aircraft had it as it's currently presented. IE, the Corsairs simply increased the throttle beyond a stop above 100% to engage water injection.

3) Implement some of the unique aircraft features. Rather than a "Gear Up/Down," have a "crank" key for the Wildcat's landing gear that needs to be pressed so many times. Add automatic flaps on the N1K2, allow the F4U and F6F to "set and forget" up two notches of flaps. Implement the K-19 LCOS, perhaps as a Perk option for the P-51D and other late-war aircraft that carried them.
3a) Perhaps include some common field mods not otherwise represented as another perk option.

4) Remove ammunition counters for planes that didn't have them (which was pretty much anything but the Germans, IIRC).

5) Remove trim axes from aircraft that didn't have them (IIRC, some aircraft didn't have trim for every control axis)

6) Oh, and add clickable Virtual Cockpits. Not completely relevant to this, but it would be cool, and would help VR guys flailing about for the keyboard because they forgot to map one particular function they suddenly need. :-P
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 10:03:11 PM by Saxman »
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2019, 03:07:21 AM »
think it's been said before, why push buttons just for the sake of pushing buttons.  we arent flying real planes, it's model after real planes.  if I have to press a button 25 times to get the gear up or down, what does it do for me other than giving me carpel tunnel syndrome which I already have.

I have a keyboard that can be programmed, but gave it up after having the bail out function too close to the raise gear.


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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2019, 09:06:28 AM »
Yeah, I vote thumbs down.  If I wanted full-realism with the PITA of engine management and all that stuff I'd go to DCS.

A keyboard is a poor substitute for actual controls.  The automation of things in here is a way to bridge that gap.   I say leave it alone.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2019, 09:28:13 AM »
Counterpoint: War Thunder HAS those systems, and it’s literally killing AH in terms of player numbers. So clearly that isn’t nearly the barrier you’re making it out to be.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2019, 09:38:09 AM »
Counterpoint: War Thunder HAS those systems, and it’s literally killing AH in terms of player numbers. So clearly that isn’t nearly the barrier you’re making it out to be.


WT isn't popular because it has all that junk.    And yes, it's a barrier, whether you like to admit it or not.    I have no interest in it and I'm not alone.   A keyboard is not a throttle quadrant or cockpit panel.   AH recognizes that and automates those functions that are not readily accessible with a keyboard.

This is AH, it's not WT.  Different game.  Different model.   If you want manual management then fine, but you shouldn't get a bonus for it.    You get the same performance as the rest of us.  Then you can choose your realism as you see fit.

AH is a good balance.  Leave it alone or allow it as an opt-in that doesn't change performance.
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2019, 09:47:39 AM »
Then remove Stall Limiter, Combat Trim, all autopilot modes, and the Engine Governor. All optional settings that make it easier to manage the aircraft and fly, but you gain more benefit from turning them off.

Saying players using manual engine management shouldn’t get some sort of bonus for doing so at the expense of more manual oversight/risk when the game ALREADY has functions that do just that is INCREDIBLY arbitrary and bordering on hypocritical.
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Offline Spikes

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 09:52:57 AM »
Then remove Stall Limiter, Combat Trim, all autopilot modes, and the Engine Governor. All optional settings that make it easier to manage the aircraft and fly, but you gain more benefit from turning them off.
Isn't this a good system to have, though? It is helpful for those who don't want the realism, but beneficial to turn them off for the more experienced pilots.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2019, 10:02:48 AM »
Then remove Stall Limiter, Combat Trim, all autopilot modes, and the Engine Governor. All optional settings that make it easier to manage the aircraft and fly, but you gain more benefit from turning them off.

Saying players using manual engine management shouldn’t get some sort of bonus for doing so at the expense of more manual oversight/risk when the game ALREADY has functions that do just that is INCREDIBLY arbitrary and bordering on hypocritical.

I don't care.   This is not a sim.   It's hard enough to play as it is without giving an ADDITIONAL edge to people who may have an advantage in equipment, physical ability (some guys here are disabled you know), etc.    If you want to grind for advantage go to WT.

The game has a very limited number of automated features like the stall limiter that reduce performance.   That's the key.  LIMITED.

Hitech has struck the right balance.  Leave it alone.    You push the game toward this full-realism-equals-advantage and you'll lose a lot of folks to games that already do that--and may actually do it better.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2019, 10:05:37 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2019, 10:29:35 AM »
I don't care.

Well, if you're so adamantly against even an objective discussion on how it could be implemented, then shove off my Wish List. Especially if you're going to start throwing out strawman BS about grinding which I didn't say WORD ONE about implementing.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2019, 10:33:58 AM »

"Find the fun stuff, and then throw everything else out."  Sid Meier

This is a game that is supposed to entertain, not a commercial or military trainer.  Just because something could be modeled, doesn't mean it has to be modeled.  There is an unlimited amount of chicken-shite that COULD be modeled that would add no fun and just get in the way.

The question is, would radiator cowling flap twiddling be the fun part of being a fighter pilot?  Does that get their palms sweaty?  Do people daydream at work about getting home and twiddling some cowling flaps?

Maybe for some people, probably not for most. 

If you could make it so people who aren't interested in aircraft accounting would still have the model and feel they have now, and add it so that those who want to twiddle radiator cowling flaps get maybe 1 mph bonus, then I'm ok with that.  Just don't add it and start punishing everyone who doesn't want to get that anal and change the model feel of what they already have.  So lean toward very minor bonus, not punishment.  Give  (very very minor), don't take away.

:salute


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Offline mikeWe9a

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2019, 10:54:26 AM »
Counterpoint: War Thunder HAS those systems, and it’s literally killing AH in terms of player numbers. So clearly that isn’t nearly the barrier you’re making it out to be.

War Thunder only has that in simulation mode, which seems to be used by a very small minority of the players.  In the other modes, engine control is generally done by the game, and it is more advantageous to use "mouse aim" to control the aircraft than a joystick.  It is also free to play.

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2019, 11:24:49 AM »
I don't think it's the way HTC is heading these days. They seem to be going out of their way to try and make things easier, not more complicated. Also with the limited personal they are now working with is this something that you thing would help the game right now?

I'd rather see them make a bunch more tiles that could be used in the maps. Adding ground details could add that "look" some players are looking for to be more realistic.  I think the graphics in the game are fine, there are just too few of them. After that a way to update the maps we have quickly to bring in these new tiles. Maybe add a random generator that moves tiles around a bit when the maps are loaded after a win. This would give a freshness to the old maps each time they come up.

The game should  e setup so a new guy not knowing anything about flying could be in the air and fighting in 10-15 minutes.  Anything that pushes us away from that is a waste of resources, resources HTC doesn't really have these days.

Offline Saxman

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2019, 11:50:09 AM »
"Find the fun stuff, and then throw everything else out."  Sid Meier

This is a game that is supposed to entertain, not a commercial or military trainer.  Just because something could be modeled, doesn't mean it has to be modeled.  There is an unlimited amount of chicken-shite that COULD be modeled that would add no fun and just get in the way.

The question is, would radiator cowling flap twiddling be the fun part of being a fighter pilot?  Does that get their palms sweaty?  Do people daydream at work about getting home and twiddling some cowling flaps?

Maybe for some people, probably not for most. 

If you could make it so people who aren't interested in aircraft accounting would still have the model and feel they have now, and add it so that those who want to twiddle radiator cowling flaps get maybe 1 mph bonus, then I'm ok with that.  Just don't add it and start punishing everyone who doesn't want to get that anal and change the model feel of what they already have.  So lean toward very minor bonus, not punishment.  Give  (very very minor), don't take away.

:salute

Where did I say take away anything? What you're describing is exactly the implementation I'm going for: Enough of a bonus to make the risk/reward worthwhile, but not so much that players who don't/can't are unable to compete.
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2019, 12:04:15 PM »
Where did I say take away anything? What you're describing is exactly the implementation I'm going for: Enough of a bonus to make the risk/reward worthwhile, but not so much that players who don't/can't are unable to compete.

OK, I thought you talked about making my engine over-heat and seize if I didn't twiddle radiator flaps right.  That would be really annoying.  If it doesn't inconvenience me or give you a noticeable advantage, then fine. 

If you make the difference minor enough that I couldn't tell one way or another flying against you.  If I can tell it is giving you a noticeable advantage, then that is the same as punishing those that don't want to be flight sim accountants.  So yeah, 1 or 2 ft/s if that floats your boat.

Now whether that is worth touching that much coad is another question.  Risk&effort vs reward.  I doubt adding radiator flaps would put another 100 players in to the arena.   


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Offline Wiley

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Re: Subsystems, Quirks, and Unique Features
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2019, 12:25:41 PM »
OK, I thought you talked about making my engine over-heat and seize if I didn't twiddle radiator flaps right.  That would be really annoying.  If it doesn't inconvenience me or give you a noticeable advantage, then fine. 

If you make the difference minor enough that I couldn't tell one way or another flying against you.  If I can tell it is giving you a noticeable advantage, then that is the same as punishing those that don't want to be flight sim accountants.  So yeah, 1 or 2 ft/s if that floats your boat.

Now whether that is worth touching that much coad is another question.  Risk&effort vs reward.  I doubt adding radiator flaps would put another 100 players in to the arena.   


:salute

I'd question your comment that it wouldn't interest more people.  There are a lot of people who fly IL2 and like such as that seem to get seriously stiff nipples over engine management.  No icons seems popular too.  Those, the graphics, and the DM are the main things I've noticed people compare AH with IL2 unfavorably.

Kinda hard to convince them they're wrong and should like something else.

Wiley.
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