Trolling the Canadian Forrest in the Phantom

[Puma44]

Great story Puma, love all your stories! 

Just curious why Calgary was the usual alternate and not Edmonton (which is a lot closer)? If I remember right CFB Namao just north of Edmonton was still an air base in the '80s and early '90s as well. Was it just the chances of Edmonton sharing Cold Lake's weather too high?

Now that you mention it, I remember Edmonton was the original/normal alternate.  We planned to overfly and go to Calgary if wx was an issue at Edmonton.  That day things changed for the worst all the way around.  Thanks for knocking the rust off my memory.   

[Rocco]

No worries, it's a minor detail from 30 years ago. I only asked because I'm from Edmonton. As a kid we used to go camping up by Cold Lake every summer. Seeing the CF-18's fly by at low level was always a highlight. Never was boomed though!lol

[Busher]

Now that you mention it, I remember Edmonton was the original/normal alternate.  We planned to overfly and go to Calgary if wx was an issue at Edmonton.  That day things changed for the worst all the way around.  Thanks for knocking the rust off my memory.   

Hey Puma <S>, I always enjoy your posts. I always felt I missed something not having the chance to fly a military jet in my career.
Do you recall.... Could you fly to civil limits in crappy weather? Did you have to do a GCA or maybe you had an ILS receiver? The Airline I flew for used to send us to Trenton (RCAF base) to keep us proficient at GCA's. Those guys on the ground were amazing.

[Puma44]

Hey Puma <S>, I always enjoy your posts. I always felt I missed something not having the chance to fly a military jet in my career.
Do you recall.... Could you fly to civil limits in crappy weather? Did you have to do a GCA or maybe you had an ILS receiver? The Airline I flew for used to send us to Trenton (RCAF base) to keep us proficient at GCA's. Those guys on the ground were amazing.

Hey Busher!  Thanks!

Wx mins were dependent on the command.  For instance, my first assignment was as a T-33 pilot in the Aerospace Defense Command.  We were trained to fly to field minimums wherever it might be.  As a brand new, fresh out of the schoolhouse, 2nd Lt T-33 pilot, I led a four ship of T birds from Colorado Springs to Prince Edward Island, Canada.  It was pretty much as far northeast as we could go on the continent.  Of course, I had a very experienced, old head, crusty, seeing eye Major in my back seat.  I had the responsibility for all the flight planning, fuel stops, etc for four jets and seven other pilots.  We stopped at Scott AFB for fuel, food and pressed on, arriving at Prince Edward well after dark in a raging snow storm.  We all flew PAR approaches to minimums.  That was a half mile vis if memory serves me correctly.  The T-33 didn’t have anything close to an instrument T or six pack on the instrument panel but, did have ILS capability.  It was pretty much a hodgepodge of instruments that took some time to get good with.

In comparison, a visit with one of my pilot training buds during his six month Tactical Air Command F-4 school, revealed that his wx minimums were 1500 and 5 until he had X number of F-4 hours after the schoolhouse.  It then ratcheted down as he got more hours in the jet.  I think the lowest wx mins an experienced F-4 jock could get to was 500 and 3.  I may be slightly off on the numbers but, it was surprising that the leading tactical fighter was so limited.  At the time, Phantoms didn’t have ILS, only non precision TACAN, and the trusty old PAR.

Agree, the PAR controllers could work magic.  That was always a fun and gratifying approach to fly. 

[Busher]

Hey Busher!  Thanks!

Wx mins were dependent on the command.  For instance, my first assignment was as a T-33 pilot in the Aerospace Defense Command.  We were trained to fly to field minimums wherever it might be.  As a brand new, fresh out of the schoolhouse, 2nd Lt T-33 pilot, I led a four ship of T birds from Colorado Springs to Prince Edward Island, Canada.  It was pretty much as far northeast as we could go on the continent.  Of course, I had a very experienced, old head, crusty, seeing eye Major in my back seat.  I had the responsibility for all the flight planning, fuel stops, etc for four jets and seven other pilots.  We stopped at Scott AFB for fuel, food and pressed on, arriving at Prince Edward well after dark in a raging snow storm.  We all flew PAR approaches to minimums.  That was a half mile vis if memory serves me correctly.  The T-33 didn’t have anything close to an instrument T or six pack on the instrument panel but, did have ILS capability.  It was pretty much a hodgepodge of instruments that took some time to get good with.

In comparison, a visit with one of my pilot training buds during his six month Tactical Air Command F-4 school, revealed that his wx minimums were 1500 and 5 until he had X number of F-4 hours after the schoolhouse.  It then ratcheted down as he got more hours in the jet.  I think the lowest wx mins an experienced F-4 jock could get to was 500 and 3.  I may be slightly off on the numbers but, it was surprising that the leading tactical fighter was so limited.  At the time, Phantoms didn’t have ILS, only non precision TACAN, and the trusty old PAR.

Agree, the PAR controllers could work magic.  That was always a fun and gratifying approach to fly. 

Thanks for that, Puma. I forgot to ask you, what was a typical Vref for the Phantom?

[Puma44]

Thanks for that, Puma. I forgot to ask you, what was a typical Vref for the Phantom?

142 knots at 33,000 lbs gross weight, plus 2 knots per 1,000 lbs over 33,000 lbs.

[Busher]

142 knots at 33,000 lbs gross weight, plus 2 knots per 1,000 lbs over 33,000 lbs.

Thank you. I thought it might be higher but that's quite manageable. A former FO of mine flew 104's in the RCAF and he told me they were typically 200 over the fence.

[Puma44]

Thank you. I thought it might be higher but that's quite manageable. A former FO of mine flew 104's in the RCAF and he told me they were typically 200 over the fence.

That makes sense with those tiny wings.

[ACE]

You guys ever try slapping a cold air intake on those phantom?  Prolly give ya some more horses.

[Shuffler]

Another great read...

[streakeagle]

I love all of your stories, but F-4 stories are my favorite

[Puma44]

I love all of your stories, but F-4 stories are my favorite

Thanks!  Glad you enjoy them.  The Rhino was my favorite heavy lifter.  Anything the could be strapped to the bottom could be taken out and dropped on someone’s head, not to mention the noise it could make.

The F-106, or “Iron Triangle” as some often called it was basically the Lamborghini of fighters.  Pure sex appeal and high speed, no drag.  I was always amazed how much airplane was behind me after unstrapping and climbing down the boarding ladder.  It was incredibly nimble for its size.

[Oldman731]

The F-106, or “Iron Triangle” as some often called it was basically the Lamborghini of fighters.  Pure sex appeal and high speed, no drag.  I was always amazed how much airplane was behind me after unstrapping and climbing down the boarding ladder.  It was incredibly nimble for its size.

Next to the 105, it's always been my favorite century series. 

Although almost all of them were a kid's dream planes.  A pity they were unsafe by modern standards.

As others have said, we envy your experience, Puma.  Please keep the tales coming.

- oldman

[Puma44]

A pity they were unsafe by modern standards.

- oldman

How so? 

[Oldman731]

How so?

Perhaps I was over-inclusive.  The accident rates for the F-100 and F-104 are famous.  Hard to tell with the F-105 which of the losses were combat and which were accidents, but nearly half of the total production was destroyed.  Everyone seems to have liked your 106 (see Jack Broughton's article, here:  https://www.airforcemag.com/PDF/MagazineArchive/Documents/2012/September%202012/0912century.pdf).  May well be that the problem was training pilots to handle the fast new jets (there's a study out there somewhere).

- oldman