Author Topic: Fighter Rank  (Read 5121 times)

Offline Vinkman

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Fighter Rank
« on: March 24, 2020, 12:47:30 PM »
IF you're going to comment that score and rank are meaningless blah blah...please don't. Save this thread for those that like stats and goals read the scores and appreciate them however they view them. We all know rank doesn't equal skill blah blah... So if that's your position, please refrain from clogging up the thread. Thank you.  :salute


Now:

Simon and Violator are tied for first. Never saw that before. 1 week to go. Good luck gentlemen!!



So I started looking at the stats for the top 15 players. I think the metric calculation is odd. It sums your rank in K/D, K/Hour, K/Sortie, Hit%, and Damage Points. That means there are 4 categories out of the 5 that are normalized. At 1 point a person with 38 fighter kills for the tour was ranked 5th while the person ranked 4th and 6th had 400+ kills.

Hit% seems very arbitrary with large rank differences between 7% and 11%. Not sure why this would have equal weight in the rank with  Kills, Damage, or K/D. 

#kills (not in rank), but Damage is highly correlated to it and damage is in there so that's fine.
Kills/Hour is a big differentiator. 
Kills per sortie is not a big differentiator.   

There should be some normalized metrics, otherwise it would only go the people that spent the most time online. Maybe that's ok too. But the downside of normalized metrics is a guy logs on, shows up at a capped base, vulches a bunch of people and puts up monster numbers in 4 categories (K/D, K/H, %, K/S) and never flies fighter again he could finish 100th in damage points and win the tour's fighter Rank category.   
If it were me I would have K/D, and damage points only. But I would weight the damage points by plane ENY differential. (You should get more points for killing a Dora in a P-40, than killing a P-40 in a Dora) or include Perks earned which is mostly the same thing. Those are my thoughts.   :salute

Vinkman

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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2020, 01:06:36 PM »
The hit% is probably the only true skill scored.
To be honest, I feel should be more things scored on than what is currently used.
I would add a "Perk points earned" + "perks per flight" score/rank. Making high ENY planes and low numbered sides more desirable for score potatoes.
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Offline hitech

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2020, 01:32:11 PM »
But the downside of normalized metrics is a guy logs on, shows up at a capped base, vulches a bunch of people and puts up monster numbers in 4 categories (K/D, K/H, %, K/S) and never flies fighter again he could finish 100th in damage points and win the tour's fighter Rank category.   
Vinkman

In 20 years of our current score system has that ever happened?

The current 1 fighter is Simon , his total combined rank for fighter is 101, so under your assumption of 100 rank in Kill Points even if he was #1 in all 4 categories  he still would not be #1. With only a few kills I doubt if you could rank much above 300 at the end of a tour in Kill Points. I'm sure Snail has some stats on it.

Next remember that one of the score system purposes is to motivate players to fly a certain manor. As an example if our score system consisted only of K/D what would be the effect on the way people fly. Hence why Kills per hour is there to make people more aggressive.

HiTech

Offline Vinkman

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2020, 01:49:52 PM »
The hit% is probably the only true skill scored.
To be honest, I feel should be more things scored on than what is currently used.
I would add a "Perk points earned" + "perks per flight" score/rank. Making high ENY planes and low numbered sides more desirable for score potatoes.

Yes  ;-) 


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Offline Ramesis

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2020, 02:34:56 PM »
To be honest, I am not a very good fighter pilot (in ahiii) but I now look at
my stats to see if I am improving... for me that is all they are good for  :salute
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Offline whiteman

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2020, 02:56:53 PM »
I try to look at hit% to see how I’m doing, the rest can get depressing lol

Offline atlau

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2020, 03:01:18 PM »
I think kills/hr is valid. Otherwise you could have a 100:1 kill ratio in a 190d but only get 1 kill/he because you dont take risks.


Offline Vinkman

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2020, 03:19:56 PM »
In 20 years of our current score system has that ever happened?
I guess we'd have to ask Lusche. I tried to find a thread I started on the subject for exactly that reason...but as yet I can't. there have been several threads on the subject and in one of them I recounted how someone won the tour flying limited missions in a tempest killing only bombers. Not that killing bombers shouldn't count, but the top scoring fighter pilot only killed something like 5 fighter planes the whole tour. And didn't have anywhere near the most kills. 

Quote
The current 1 fighter is Simon , his total combined rank for fighter is 101, so under your assumption of 100 rank in Kill Points even if he was #1 in all 4 categories  he still would not be #1. With only a few kills I doubt if you could rank much above 300 at the end of a tour in Kill Points. I'm sure Snail has some stats on it.

True. And dropping hit% wouldn't change who finishes in this tour's top 5 rank much, but it does effect it.

Quote
Next remember that one of the score system purposes is to motivate players to fly a certain manor. As an example if our score system consisted only of K/D what would be the effect on the way people fly. Hence why Kills per hour is there to make people more aggressive.

HiTech

I agree that is a huge opportunity for a scoring system. To that end, what behavior is driven by hit% that makes the game better?  What would I change to raise it?  To check I raised mine  from 7% to 9% in one day by unloading machine guns into buffs when I had the chance instead of just blowing them up with taters. I can put 400 rounds of MG hits into a formation at 80% hit rate (under the right circumstances). Since I normally just use the taters, my total fired rounds is pretty low. So when I dump 400 rounds of hits into an easy target, my rate skyrockets.   But why is that an objective? On the other hand the way I normally use the machine guns is to scare bandits off a team mate's six o'clocks, de-ack town, or range a bandit, or mark a tank for a team mate. Every time I do that, I'm dropping my hit% so the metric says don't do those things if you want to win. If you fly a K4 and get most of your kills with the 65 taters, firing off 300 MG round on these other useful things is really crushing to your hit%.

Winning the tour means having a total rank around 100. The difference between 7% and 10% of rounds landed is worth is 65 rank points. Doesn;t that seem like a big effect for missing 90% or missing 93% of the time?  :huh

I think the Plane ENY modifier discussed in other posts in this thread would encourage more plane diversity, and encourage top pilots to fly lower ranked planes, which could help balance game play.

 :salute
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 03:27:38 PM by Vinkman »
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Offline svaalbar

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2020, 03:56:38 PM »
Let's be honest the real rank 1 men are hoagie, cmex and yucca  :cool:
"All fighter pilots were a little crazy, but mostly the nicest guys you'd ever meet." The Biography of a Rabbit, by Roy Benson Jr - https://gutenberg.org/files/7190/7190-h/7190-h.htm

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2020, 04:13:26 PM »
In 20 years of our current score system has that ever happened?

The current 1 fighter is Simon , his total combined rank for fighter is 101, so under your assumption of 100 rank in Kill Points even if he was #1 in all 4 categories  he still would not be #1. With only a few kills I doubt if you could rank much above 300 at the end of a tour in Kill Points. I'm sure Snail has some stats on it.

Next remember that one of the score system purposes is to motivate players to fly a certain manor. As an example if our score system consisted only of K/D what would be the effect on the way people fly. Hence why Kills per hour is there to make people more aggressive.

HiTech

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2020, 04:18:54 PM »
I guess we'd have to ask Lusche. I tried to find a thread I started on the subject for exactly that reason...but as yet I can't. there have been several threads on the subject and in one of them I recounted how someone won the tour flying limited missions in a tempest killing only bombers. Not that killing bombers shouldn't count, but the top scoring fighter pilot only killed something like 5 fighter planes the whole tour. And didn't have anywhere near the most kills. 

True. And dropping hit% wouldn't change who finishes in this tour's top 5 rank much, but it does effect it.

I agree that is a huge opportunity for a scoring system. To that end, what behavior is driven by hit% that makes the game better?  What would I change to raise it?  To check I raised mine  from 7% to 9% in one day by unloading machine guns into buffs when I had the chance instead of just blowing them up with taters. I can put 400 rounds of MG hits into a formation at 80% hit rate (under the right circumstances). Since I normally just use the taters, my total fired rounds is pretty low. So when I dump 400 rounds of hits into an easy target, my rate skyrockets.   But why is that an objective? On the other hand the way I normally use the machine guns is to scare bandits off a team mate's six o'clocks, de-ack town, or range a bandit, or mark a tank for a team mate. Every time I do that, I'm dropping my hit% so the metric says don't do those things if you want to win. If you fly a K4 and get most of your kills with the 65 taters, firing off 300 MG round on these other useful things is really crushing to your hit%.

Winning the tour means having a total rank around 100. The difference between 7% and 10% of rounds landed is worth is 65 rank points. Doesn;t that seem like a big effect for missing 90% or missing 93% of the time?  :huh

I think the Plane ENY modifier discussed in other posts in this thread would encourage more plane diversity, and encourage top pilots to fly lower ranked planes, which could help balance game play.

 :salute

The bolded section is what I think covers the whole score system. Your hit% suffers because you use taters to drop bombers. So to "score/rank" better you have to dump a bunch of machine gun rounds in them to bring that % up. Thats one of the biggest issues with the scoring system, it can be manipulated. If you add more categories it will just open it up to more areas for manipulation.

Is the scoring system perfect, hell no. It does give someone who cant fly 400 hours a month a chance to rank up there with those that do. It "evens out" over the long run and number of categories so that it seems more "fair".  I dont think there is any way to make it so you could have the top pilot always ranked there. How would you rank yourself against someone like Yucca? You fly a tater tosser, he flies with 50's. I dont know what style you fly, but I know Yucca is always turning and burn down low in a fat old jug. Is he a top 10 stick or is he really in the 80s like he is ranked?

There is too many ways to "tweak" your score for it to be a true measuring stick of rank. Some people go for rank and do those things .....like fill bombers with machine gun rounds.... to get to the top. Lusche is a master of the scoring system and how it works. It would be interesting to see his take on a system that would be fair and acurate. 

Offline hitech

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2020, 05:07:17 PM »
The bolded section is what I think covers the whole score system. Your hit% suffers because you use taters to drop bombers. So to "score/rank" better you have to dump a bunch of machine gun rounds in them to bring that % up. Thats one of the biggest issues with the scoring system, it can be manipulated. If you add more categories it will just open it up to more areas for manipulation.

Is the scoring system perfect, hell no. It does give someone who cant fly 400 hours a month a chance to rank up there with those that do. It "evens out" over the long run and number of categories so that it seems more "fair".  I dont think there is any way to make it so you could have the top pilot always ranked there. How would you rank yourself against someone like Yucca? You fly a tater tosser, he flies with 50's. I dont know what style you fly, but I know Yucca is always turning and burn down low in a fat old jug. Is he a top 10 stick or is he really in the 80s like he is ranked?

There is too many ways to "tweak" your score for it to be a true measuring stick of rank. Some people go for rank and do those things .....like fill bombers with machine gun rounds.... to get to the top. Lusche is a master of the scoring system and how it works. It would be interesting to see his take on a system that would be fair and acurate.

You do not even see the bias in your own post, you make statements like this "How would you rank yourself against someone like Yucca?" you are making the huge assumptions of what you think better is. Your post shows a desire to measure the BEST (not sure what) you believe in the way someone flies. But you fail to define it.


The next issue is that you believe knowing how to tweak your score is NOT a skill? By definition knowing how to optimize your scoring is what the score system is measuring. Knowing how to optimize and then being able to execute scoring plan IS the game when trying for rank, it's not a system where the score is trying to measure some preconceived notion what some people of the  best "Pilot".

HiTech


Online DmonSlyr

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2020, 05:20:10 PM »
The bolded section is what I think covers the whole score system. Your hit% suffers because you use taters to drop bombers. So to "score/rank" better you have to dump a bunch of machine gun rounds in them to bring that % up. Thats one of the biggest issues with the scoring system, it can be manipulated. If you add more categories it will just open it up to more areas for manipulation.

Is the scoring system perfect, hell no. It does give someone who cant fly 400 hours a month a chance to rank up there with those that do. It "evens out" over the long run and number of categories so that it seems more "fair".  I dont think there is any way to make it so you could have the top pilot always ranked there. How would you rank yourself against someone like Yucca? You fly a tater tosser, he flies with 50's. I dont know what style you fly, but I know Yucca is always turning and burn down low in a fat old jug. Is he a top 10 stick or is he really in the 80s like he is ranked?

There is too many ways to "tweak" your score for it to be a true measuring stick of rank. Some people go for rank and do those things .....like fill bombers with machine gun rounds.... to get to the top. Lusche is a master of the scoring system and how it works. It would be interesting to see his take on a system that would be fair and acurate.

The ranking system is actually pretty decent to measure your performance.

1. If you want to try for a high k/d, fly a faster plane and attack bases rather than defend. Planes will typically be under you and you will be able to kill more plus run away easier if you get in trouble.

2. If you want to increase K/S, always try to get at least 3-6 kills per sortie even If you die.

3. If you want to increase hit%, use 50 calls and shoot bombers once in a while.

4. If you want to increase k/h. Defend your base rather than only attack, defend against CV attacks, or launch from CVs near enemy bases for shorter flight distances.

5. If you want to increase points, use 50 calls and attack bombers, or play a lot. (Points have always been my biggest weakness)

If you take the opportunity to do these steps in different situations during the tour. You will generally have a top 10 fighter rank.

Rarely do people who only fly one plane and one style ever get #1, and even being top 5 is tough unless you fly a Temp, 262, P51, 190D, or f4u4 every sortie and really know what you are doing. Mixing up your styles and planes are what gives you the high rank. That makes it good IMO.

For example, I was still #1 and top 5 this tour so far even with dying more than 50% of the time. I normally get ganged about every other sortie low n slow in a fight which leads to my death. However, I typically get 2-5 kills a sortie. Focusing on getting more kills a sortie is very important. Though dying really reduces the amount of points you score. Plane choice really determines how many points you get per sortie. Landing really matters in that regard. I normally get top 5 most every tour because I like to mix up the styles of play. I dont normally play for rank unless I think I have a chance at being #1, that being said, I hate to die a lot without kills so it gives me a pretty decent rank most of the time. That's what 15 years of ACM and MA study get you.

I like the fighter rank because people with different flying styles can be top ranked if they try.

I do wish there was a ENY metric however, anything to get players into mid war planes instead of super late war planes. The plane choice really matters. It is incredibly difficult to be top 5 flying early war planes.

There is always that challenge of trying to be top ranked in midwar-early war planes. Challenging yourself like that will really help you become better at the game.

Players like Yucca are extremely skilled and very good fighters in the MA, but flying as risky as he does in a fighter that's meant to BnZ and jabo, he gets shot down quite a a bit from being ganged. That's his choice and his preferred style of play. His metrics are one thing. His ACM skills are another. It's hard to measure ACM skill like that. I wish more were like him, but that is a dying breed as most people dont care about ACM contest anymore. It's all gang and kill by any means necessary.  This has led to a lot of timidness is late war planes which has made the gameplay boring and slow for many.

I think If you are trying for rank or to increase your MA performance, the metrics are very good. Many players dont care or try, even if they are good. So they dont have as high of a rank. Luckily it changes every tour so it always washes out and a person always has a new opportunity to try for it. That is something I really like. I also like that you dont have to play every day to be top ranked, though you do have to find a way to get points.

Even if a person shoots bombers 25 times taking off and never flies again, they will still have a chance at not becoming #1 because of the points. I proved that last year against a player who did that very thing.


« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 05:22:08 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline atlau

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2020, 06:12:05 PM »
Filling buffs with mg rounds instead of cannon is bad for your health.

I have a better hit percentage with 20 and 30mm than 50 cal planes because i change my shot selection to shoot closer in and not waste my precious limited rounds. When. I have 2000 50cals I spray them 600+ out routinely

Offline Lusche

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Re: Fighter Rank
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2020, 07:20:14 PM »
Just as I was about to go to bed, I discovered this thread. Oh well...  :bhead

Quote
Maybe that's ok too. But the downside of normalized metrics is a guy logs on, shows up at a capped base, vulches a bunch of people and puts up monster numbers in 4 categories (K/D, K/H, %, K/S) and never flies fighter again he could finish 100th in damage points and win the tour's fighter Rank category.

To my knowledge this has never happened in the LW/Main/Melee arena - yet. It's not impossible, but very difficult to pull off, there are still a lot of players with very good scoring stats AND a massive amount of play time-> damage points.  It happened before only in the much smaller EW & MW arenas, with their much smaller populations and much fewer average hours of play time per player per tour.

Let's take last tours fighter ranks. Lets assume someone  did a freak single vulch sortie and ended up with 10 kills.
Let's say
K/D 10 - would result in rank 10
K/S 10 -> rank  1
K/H 20 -> rank 3
hit% 10 -> rank 38
Kill Points 1400 -> rank 463   (determined by the avg. kill points per kill for the top 100 fighter pilots)

This freak sortie (which would, vulch or not, already take an excellent pilot to pull of) result in a overall fighter rank of around 45.
Even with two such sorties in a row and increasing the hit% to 15% he would not have made the top 20.


(Disclaimer: for technical reasons, my rank numbers can differ slightly from HT's, but that usually has little impact on top ranking calculations)

Hope I did not make any errors, it's quite late over here  ;)
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