Author Topic: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design  (Read 7982 times)

Offline Arlo

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Scenarios. *sigh* The step-child of online WWII (and WWI) dog fighting MMO play since AW and AH came to be. Scenarios in both games have been designed by player volunteers that have poured blood, sweat, tears and time into such. Every individual seems to approach them from a different aspect (somewhat), players and designers alike. Granted, each has their own preferences when envisioning how they will play out (and designers tend to participate in their own scenarios and usually with their favorite toys - though there are examples of that not being the case). Over the years there have seemed to be unwritten (or even written) rules that define how scenarios should be designed. Any event that steps outside those rules is generally met with strong disapproval even before the event (scenario) is even tried. Well, that's my opinion from years of play and I admit it has probably changed some.

To that end, let us start with the seemingly obvious:

1. Events are limited to the aircraft, vehicles and ships available for play in Aces High.

https://www.hitechcreations.com/21-flight-sim/world-war-two-planes/49-planes-of-aces-high

https://www.hitechcreations.com/10-flight-sim/world-war-two-vehicles/195-vehicles-of-aces-high

(Plus boats, ships and player and auto AAA).

Some designers will designate some on that list as not fun or practical (but I think they just never found a solution or even that they may have bias).

In some instances a model may be re-skinned to represent an aircraft or vehicle not available in game inventory.

2. Events are limited to the terrains designed by players with a talent for such and the time to work on them.

3. Events are limited by the number of player able or willing to participate.

4. Events are limited by the host's server capacity (though I've yet to see that be a problem).

Those are the physical limitations I perceive and if I've left something out then I welcome someone who is willing to mention it doing so.

Here's where I deviate to finesse of design and the assumptions made to do so.

1. Fair. What is fair? All aircraft being as equally matched in ability and numbers as possible? This appears to be many a designer's bottom line. But why? Is a scenario the same as Checkers, Chess or Parcheesi? Were all battles in history fair from the outset? Did underdogs in battle manage to win? Did those who fought against 'insurmountable odds' and were on the losing side never manage to achieve outstanding accomplishments? Some may say that they shined specifically because of.

Having said that, of course scenario designers must contend with the perception and opinion of the players who might shy away from the design if they think of it as 'unfair.' Seems, as time trickled on, there's more of that. (Or maybe it is my aged and faulty memory conjuring up players that saw more of a challenge as their brand of fun.)

Now I'm not talking Sopwith Camels versus 262s or Emils versus Mustang Ds. Anything can be taken to an extreme. So can the design element of fair/balanced. No two aircraft in AH that are historical enemies have specifications that are identical, regarding speed, firepower, ceiling, damage or maneuverability. Most experienced players know that to make the most out of dog-fighting one must familiarize themselves with their and their opponent's craft strengths and weaknesses. Some, like me, are just happy to participate and anything that qualifies as an accomplishment is a cherry on top (air to air victories, structures bombed, interceptors chased or dragged off the bomber formation and even just surviving).

Design obviously should have some give and take (and yes, I've seen some of that before and during events but I think there's a bit too much of argument based on results when, honestly, flexible results should happen and overreaction should not). I'm of the opinion that every single aircraft or vehicle in the inventory can be used in a scenario and used effectively.

2. History. How many battles in history were planned by the generals or admirals to be even and fair? Well, none of them should be. If they were then that was an accident of fate. I'm about to be a participant in TFT Dieppe. That battle went horrifically wrong for the Allies. If the design was to be representative of history then the players on the Allied side should fail in their main objective. Granted, the capture of Dieppe is not even part of the design so the Allies 'winning' the battle is not so much a matter of changing that aspect but a point-war is. That seems as useful to me as points in the MA. If a player is interested in gathering points to prove they are better than other players then, well, OK. To me it's more of an experience thing. The adrenaline high, the sweaty palms, the fast heartbeat and breathing .... the 30 seconds of fear (simulated) amongst the 30 minutes to an hour of posturing for advantage.

Having something 100% historically authentic, though, is no more a realistic goal than having everything 100% fair. Give and take. Make the most of a possible uphill battle. Take on the guise of the brave Samurai fighter pilot, prepared to die for the Emperor when the war became obviously a lost cause. Be the Spitfire pilot that, though graced with a very fine machine, was outnumbered by German 109s and 190s. Victory becomes escaping virtual death.

Now, there's also the viewpoint that scenarios are not reenactments. If you're into that then go buy some old historical uniforms and go out to old battlefields to entertain the masses on how the first or second Battle of Manassas/Bull Run was won (or lost). If a scenario design does offer some alternate history, then fine. D-Day failed or Midway or Germany's invasion of France. As long as the element of personal accomplishment isn't eliminated, entirely.

3. Fun. Since when has fun meant winning all the time? There are players that gravitate to playing Allied pilots (me) and players that gravitate to playing Axis pilots. But no player, imo, should fall trap to judging scenarios by a we/them attitude where Allies or Axis must win at all costs (this is where events tend to become an argument fest between frames because there was 'too much' winning or losing between favorite sides). There was a bit of Allied grumbling noticed after Arados seemed to much of an advantage in one scenario. But there was no player strike, as a result. So what. It makes for a modest design reconsideration for the future. Plenty still had fun on both sides.

Basically, don't get stuck in a 'must win' attitude or walking away from events. This ain't football or baseball.

Nobody can force other players to take on a brave underdog persona. That will always force scenario designers to seek a degree of balance. I just don't think overreaction based on little pockets of bias should affect scenario design too much. Trying something and it not turning out to be a 100% success (or even 75% .... heck, 50% or less - in one's opinion) should never result in any one model in AH cast to the ash heap.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 04:16:41 PM by Arlo »

Offline Spikes

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 04:22:02 PM »
Before I comment on some points, I guess I am just a little confused as I don't see a point, respectfully. Are you requesting we change something?
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Offline Arlo

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 04:37:41 PM »
Before I comment on some points, I guess I am just a little confused as I don't see a point, respectfully. Are you requesting we change something?

This is what's known as a philosophical discussion over the design of scenarios. It's an attempt to get players and designers alike to take time to introspect what is or is not actual 'deal breakers' when it comes to design. Seeing the 'B-29 breaks scenarios' attitude seems to reflect an unwillingness or inability to fix the 'problem.' And opinions that there is nothing in the Japanese inventory that can oppose the B-29 in any way, taking into account the design restrictions often imposed on other scenarios, seems rather odd.














Offline Shuffler

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 04:48:24 PM »
While the scenarios are based on real events. The folks who put them on attempt to balance them so that they can go either way and both sides can have fun. They are not setup exactly like the actual battle was in real life.

At least that is my experience in the scenarios I have participated in.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2020, 05:02:35 PM »
While the scenarios are based on real events. The folks who put them on attempt to balance them so that they can go either way and both sides can have fun. They are not setup exactly like the actual battle was in real life.

At least that is my experience in the scenarios I have participated in.

All that was part of my post. What I was willing to add was 'why?' Why do designers have to balance everything to the sixth decimal for it to be fun? An unbalanced scenario (though not terribly so) should be able to offer all the elements of fun as one that's been massaged to the point of 'air checkers.' Give more air victory points (or ground for that matter) to the side with a perceived disadvantage (if players want an ability to outscore the other side in points, thereby 'winning' when the battle is lost). It's no more complicated than a golf handicap. Or shift numbers to give one side or the other a numbers advantage that makes up for the perceived disadvantages (this has been done) and if it turns out (at the end of the scenario) that the perception was flawed then adjust the next time the event is run.

But the claim that any one aircraft or vehicle in AH overbalances any chance of scenario design is what's really a 'broken' idea. The same was claimed about Corsairs of any model. To me, that's just bias entering the design element.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2020, 05:14:41 PM »
It's a no win for Scenario Team crews.  The most miserable part of that time when I was part of the Scenario team is there were individuals who went out of their way to complain and whine about everything to the point of making it their only goal.  It ended up making the process miserable as there was nothing you could do to please that vocal and obnoxious minority of players who seemed to get more fun out of trying to wreck the scenario than make it better.

As just a player now, I avoid getting into the discussion much as it's pointless.  I look for those that might let me dive into the history part of it that I enjoy and hope for the best.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2020, 05:26:26 PM »
It's a no win for Scenario Team crews.  The most miserable part of that time when I was part of the Scenario team is there were individuals who went out of their way to complain and whine about everything to the point of making it their only goal.  It ended up making the process miserable as there was nothing you could do to please that vocal and obnoxious minority of players who seemed to get more fun out of trying to wreck the scenario than make it better.

As just a player now, I avoid getting into the discussion much as it's pointless.  I look for those that might let me dive into the history part of it that I enjoy and hope for the best.

Ran into much the same as a 'Combat Theater' CM. But I'm not trying to make this a fight to the death argument. I'll be just as happy if someone could reasonably prove to me that the B-29 should never again see the light of a scenario day as I would if any of the current design team would shift to 'but wait a minute, we never actually tried _____.' But I still have a lot of why and why not left in me, regarding.

Banning the Superfortress is more of a slippery slope than I think many of the designers realize. I could take that same argument and use it to ban 262s, 163s, Arados, Tiger IIs, T-34s, Tempests, F4U-4s, Yak-3s, Mosquito XVIs, TA-152s and that list can just keep growing. I'd much rather work on a way to make them all work, either by finesse or by blunt adjustment.

Offline Spikes

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2020, 05:36:25 PM »

Banning the Superfortress is more of a slippery slope than I think many of the designers realize. I could take that same argument and use it to ban 262s, 163s, Arados, Tiger IIs, T-34s, Tempests, F4U-4s, Yak-3s, Mosquito XVIs, TA-152s and that list can just keep growing. I'd much rather work on a way to make them all work, either by finesse or by blunt adjustment.
The B-29 is not banned. However, the B-25C is in Scenarios.
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Offline Nefarious

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2020, 05:43:17 PM »
AI could be the great equalizer with the B-29 when set to a reasonable speed and altitude.  :bolt:
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Arlo

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2020, 05:51:22 PM »
AI could be the great equalizer with the B-29 when set to a reasonable speed and altitude.  :bolt:

Good point. I'm very impressed with what you and CptTrips have accomplished.  :salute :cheers:

Offline Nefarious

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2020, 05:56:35 PM »
Good point. I'm very impressed with what you and CptTrips have accomplished.  :salute :cheers:

It could also mark the triumphant return of the B-25 off the ban list.  :D  :cheers:
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline Arlo

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2020, 06:01:44 PM »
Wait, is that really a thing?

Catch-22, baybee!




Offline Guppy35

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2020, 06:12:07 PM »
The B-29 is not banned. However, the B-25C is in Scenarios.

Why banned?  RAF was flying them in the ETO, USAAF in the MTO, both places without more guns added to them.  That's the point of escorts.  Talk about removing the history from an event.  We have a player, Toad, whose Dad's B25C strafer has been skinned in the game.  No chance Quitch will ever get to fly?
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2020, 07:52:19 PM »
Some thoughts on the fun factor.

"Fun" is relative. All the other criteria can usually be argued over objectively with opinions backed up with some sort of data.

Some guys have the most fun dogfighting with historically matched-up planes.
Some guys have the most fun shooting down as many enemies as they can.
Some guys have the most fun planning and executing an elaborate mission.
Some guys have the most fun winning a battle by the skin of their teeth.
Some guys have the most fun reliving history just by participating in the event.
Some guys have the most fun playing to win.
Some guys have the most fun just flying with their squaddies.

Most guys get some fun from each of these aspects. The idea is to balance those wants so that the most players can say they had fun when it's over.

I designed an Eastern Front FSO last year. The moment I had the most fun in FSO last year was watching 18 dots close in on the He 111's I was escorting and seeing all the red icons pop up 'I-16" and then watching all those Ratas dive in on the Heinkels. When I designed that event, that was the exact image I had in my head and seeing it unfold before my eyes had me grinning like a Cheshire cat. 

But was it fun for the I-16 pilots? I hope is was for most of them.
But was it fun for the He 111 pilots? I hope it was for most of them.
But was it fun for the escorting 109's? I hope it was for most of them.

And if any pilots were not having fun at that moment, I hope that the next week provided them the fun they were looking for.

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Offline Nefarious

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Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2020, 08:10:30 PM »
I designed an Eastern Front FSO last year. The moment I had the most fun in FSO last year was watching 18 dots close in on the He 111's I was escorting and seeing all the red icons pop up 'I-16" and then watching all those Ratas dive in on the Heinkels. When I designed that event, that was the exact image I had in my head and seeing it unfold before my eyes had me grinning like a Cheshire cat. 

This.

This is why we do it.  Not sure why you're not a CM designing FSO's under the official title. It's unfortunate.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!