Author Topic: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design  (Read 7970 times)

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 27139
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2020, 08:24:17 PM »
At the end of August, a hand full of us will be in the slower Spit V for the history of it. We will do our best, just as the young men did back in the day. We will have fun because of the history. That and because of the good folks who took the time to put the event together.  :salute
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline Devil 505

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9011
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #16 on: July 12, 2020, 09:49:27 PM »
This.

This is why we do it.  Not sure why you're not a CM designing FSO's under the official title. It's unfortunate.

There's enough CM's from my squad, already.
Kommando Nowotny

FlyKommando.com

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15738
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #17 on: July 12, 2020, 09:56:24 PM »
This is what's known as a philosophical discussion over the design of scenarios. It's an attempt to get players and designers alike to take time to introspect what is or is not actual 'deal breakers' when it comes to design. Seeing the 'B-29 breaks scenarios' attitude seems to reflect an unwillingness or inability to fix the 'problem.' And opinions that there is nothing in the Japanese inventory that can oppose the B-29 in any way, taking into account the design restrictions often imposed on other scenarios, seems rather odd.

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)

(Image removed from quote.)


Thanks for the charts. Unfortunately there are more factors that go into event design than speed and climb charts.

All that was part of my post. What I was willing to add was 'why?' Why do designers have to balance everything to the sixth decimal for it to be fun? An unbalanced scenario (though not terribly so) should be able to offer all the elements of fun as one that's been massaged to the point of 'air checkers.' Give more air victory points (or ground for that matter) to the side with a perceived disadvantage (if players want an ability to outscore the other side in points, thereby 'winning' when the battle is lost). It's no more complicated than a golf handicap. Or shift numbers to give one side or the other a numbers advantage that makes up for the perceived disadvantages (this has been done) and if it turns out (at the end of the scenario) that the perception was flawed then adjust the next time the event is run.

But the claim that any one aircraft or vehicle in AH overbalances any chance of scenario design is what's really a 'broken' idea. The same was claimed about Corsairs of any model. To me, that's just bias entering the design element.
Designers balance things for it to be fun so people come back. I'm not sure why this question is being asked. But you fail to realize that everyone has a different idea of 'fun'. Some have fun by winning by score, some have fun by winning by domination, some have fun by engaging in a balanced dogfight, some have fun by pulling the trigger, some have fun by getting shot down. The dilemma for a person designing an event is trying to encompass all of these varying ideas so 60-160 people can all enjoy. Sometimes they hit the mark, sometimes they don't. Simply adding points for the disadvantaged side won't make any difference in the world if that side gets waxed within 10 minutes of combat.

Ran into much the same as a 'Combat Theater' CM. But I'm not trying to make this a fight to the death argument. I'll be just as happy if someone could reasonably prove to me that the B-29 should never again see the light of a scenario day as I would if any of the current design team would shift to 'but wait a minute, we never actually tried _____.' But I still have a lot of why and why not left in me, regarding.

Banning the Superfortress is more of a slippery slope than I think many of the designers realize. I could take that same argument and use it to ban 262s, 163s, Arados, Tiger IIs, T-34s, Tempests, F4U-4s, Yak-3s, Mosquito XVIs, TA-152s and that list can just keep growing. I'd much rather work on a way to make them all work, either by finesse or by blunt adjustment.
B-29s can see the light of day. Join the Aces High CM team and feel free to design an event with B-29s to your heart's desire. With that said, there are a small amount of people who enjoy Pacific events, and I don't think I've ever recorded a complaint about a lack of the B-29.

It is difficult enough to attack large formations of B-17s and B-24s with P-51 and P-47 escorts with aircraft designed to intercept (these being the Fw 190 and Bf 109). Now sub out B-17s and B-24s for the greatest bomber of WWII, the B-29 and the same escort package versus planes not exactly designed to intercept high altitude bomber missions over Japan. At this point, we are going to have to limit the number of B-29s or max altitude to make it feasible for the Japanese fighters to intercept them and have a decent change to shoot them down. Now that we have an alt cap on the B-29 (of less than ~30K) you've thrown away their historical value simply to shoehorn the plane into the event, so we are back at square one.

I personally don't enjoy late war Pacific stuff as the plane matchups become quite unbalanced after ~1943, so when tasked, I try to avoid the 1945 stuff. For the majority of pilots, unbalanced = not fun.

In FSO, most of the aircraft you listed are not used for a variety of reasons which include but are not limited to: availability, role, history, balance.

In what event would you include a Mosquito XVI where it would fit a typical design?
In what event would you include an F4U-4 (the single best piston aircraft in the game, mind you) where it would balance well against the opponents (those being the Ki 84 or N1K2J)?
I would be content including F4U-1C's so long as they are relegated to ground attack duty during night time.

The Ar 234 is a great example because it highlights the gap between the Ju 88 and Ar 234. The Ju 88 is more or less fodder past 1942 and the Ar 234 is uber as soon as it is introduced. The obvious thought is: well, just make the 234 worth a lot! This is a great idea, but the fact of the matter is it is still ridiculously fast and good at the task it is being assigned to do and has a lot probability of being killed. Therefore, you can't reasonably balance a jet bomber (or any jet for that matter) in a world of piston planes.

The 163 is unreasonable in an FSO environment as it has 5 minutes of fuel. We've toyed with various ways to allow them in other aircraft, but it is too much work for too little satisfaction.

The 262 is used once in a while in limited numbers due to complaints, even though most events where it is used are high alt 8th AF style missions where it is more or less useless. It is better to just avoid it entirely.

We use Ta 152s where possible in events because it isn't very game breaking, but the fact that they only served from April 1945 onward does not help its cause. P-47M is in the same boat.

The 262 and 234 are my favorite aircraft in the game and I'd love to include them in every setup possible, but sometimes you have to take a step back and realize that it is just not feasible to put it in the design.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 09:58:53 PM by Spikes »
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #18 on: July 12, 2020, 10:10:24 PM »
I love philosophical discussions. I am currently reading Trotsky's In Defense of Marxism, which may not qualify as philosophy in many circles, but it should for this crowd. I have found in the past this is not the optimal forum for such discussions. However, because of the subject matter in this particular case, it fits.

Designing an event is not an easy task. I have had opinions of designs since my first involvement in Special Events (Operation Downfall). I now wear the designer cap and there is a very specific recipe for designing a perfect event which has never been done. I have found certain ingredients which must be included in said recipe, but maybe not the perfect amount. My first FSO design as lead designer was met with criticism before Frame 1 from Dantoo. It was a nice christening and I respect Dantoo's opinions on designs more than anyone else's in the game. Dantoo plays the game a specific way and his perception is different from mine, Brooke's, Spikes's, Nef's, and anyone else's. I weigh equally his compliments and his complaints.

I have been the obnoxious, whiny participant and I have been the designer. I have occupied the terrain in between as well. What I can tell you is that every designer makes mistakes and guesses incorrectly. What I believe to be my best design to this point, some hated. Others agreed that it was the best design of my portfolio. Point being, there will always be aspects that players did not like. As a CM, I am privileged to get sneak peaks at future events and influence them before they are published. When this was not the case, I often wondered how the design got past the entire CM Team without someone advising against certain aspects. I am not sure of how it was done before me, but it seems that most events are either designed by committee or are placed in front of a review board prior to publishing, as they should. So, I can tell you that most event designs you see for the first time have been scrutinized by a team of knowledgeable and capable people. The result is the amalgamation of critics plus the lead designer's thoughts.

On perdweeb's design philosophy:

A Scenario, FSO, and Fortress Europe (to a point) event is designed as a trihorn scale of balance, accuracy, and fun. The goal of every designer is to find the perfect middle road between these three. It is nigh impossible to find said middle road, but we continue striving toward it. An event needs to be close to history, but balanced and fun at the same time. You are asking the question, "Why must it be fair?" The answer is, because fair usually equates to fun, which is why we all play the game in the first place. If something is unfair (like that Van Zant fight last night), it is not fun for most. There are those who enjoy walloping Bf 109E's with Spit V's or maybe flying nothing but Yak-3's in the MA and believing they are living gods. What they may not realize is that they are having fun at the expense of other people not having fun because of a lack of fairness. Thus, it is imperative that every design is balanced, so that we may achieve fairness thus making the event fun.

That is easy to do, if you do not take accuracy into account. Once accuracy is thrown into this mix, it gets spicy. Take Dieppe for example, 48 squadrons of Spitfires versus a whopping 2 Jagdgeschwaders of FW 190A's (A-1,A-2, and A-3 to be specific). That is Spitfires only, that is not including the Typhoons, bombers, Hurricanes, Mustang I (recon), etc. Roughly, we are talking about 5:1 odds in favor of the RAF. Of those 48 Spitfire squadrons, a grand total of 4 were equipped with Spitfire Mk. IX's, according to my research (64, 611, 401, and 402). That means that a mere 1 of 12 Spitfires over Dieppe on the day were Mark IX's. Yet, here we have 4 of 5 Spitfires being Mark IX's. That is not accurate. Likewise, Spits should outnumber the Luftwaffe by about 5:1, that also is not the case here. Here is why:

5:1 in Aces High is not fun or fair. Having a vastly inferior aircraft than most of your opponents is also not fun or fair. Maybe there are a few guys willing to take on the challenge, but not the majority. Imagine if the Dieppe TFT was reversed and the Spit 9's only numbered 6 and the Spit 5's numbered 24, it would be accurate for two reasons: the Spits are split accurately and the Allies will get massacred accurately. We can't have that. We also can't stray too far from history, meaning we can't limit the FW 190's else it is no longer Dieppe. Not being Dieppe is fine. I think Nuisance Raids is a good planeset for 100 people, but not for 50. Dieppe, to me, is 190's versus loads of Spitfire's. That is what we have here. But, because it is AH, we must make this playable, therefore we cannot have Spit 5's against 190A-5's. Just like we cannot have F4U-1A versus Ki-43 or A6M3.

Keeping things accurate, playable, fair, and fun is a very difficult task. I am an Early War fanatic. I love out of the box designs with weird matchups. My design folder is filled with crazy plane sets that I think would be fun to see. The problem is, no one wants to fly P-40's, I-16's, Ki-43's, and Hurricane Mk. I's. I understand why, I really do, but it saddens me. I loathe flying at 25K and higher, especially when I am tasked with killing things with rear guns. I want to be in the soup on the deck flirting with stall speed at all times.

I'll now apply your thoughts on fair and fun with Dieppe TFT, because it is a good example:

5:1 is accurate, but let's take that down to 3:1. Now, 8% Spit 9, the rest Spit 5. Finally, a few Typhoons, Hurris, and Bostons for accuracy's sake. For the Luftwaffe, FW 190A-5, a handful of Bf 109G-2 (12 total out of roughly 100), and some bombers. That plane set would look like this (for 60 people):





Allies (45):

3 Typhoon
3 Hurricane II
3 Spit 9
36 Spit 5


Axis (15)

2 Bf 109G-2
13 FW 190A-5



This is not quite accurate, but it is very close at 3:1. This is not fun for anyone, nor is it playable. But it is more accurate than what we have put forth. Even if we made it 40v20 it would not be fun for anyone. At 35v25, it gets much better. At that point, we can add more Spit 5's (thus saving some accuracy) and throw in Hurricanes if we wished (I find them unnecessary).


Allies (35)

4 Typhoon
21 Spit 5
10 Spit 9


Axis (25)

22 FW 190A-5
3 Bf 109G-2


This is better, but I still argue that the numbers are bad. Sure, it is more accurate, but people fly pixel planes differently than real planes. A disadvantage is more pronounced in a video game than it is real life. Although the 190 is the best airplane, I think even 22 would struggle against 31. But, the fact that it is Spit 5 helps. Maybe this would fly with the community. As a Luftwaffe guy, I would be willing to try it in a 190. But, I am guessing many would find too many things wrong with it on paper. The disadvantages are offset by other disadvantages, so maybe it would work. But, the event has to be screened by the other members of the design team which find fault in a design such as this (for reasons aforementioned). We do not know if it will be 35v25 as many may not show up. Or, the walk ons may go to the Spitfires instead of the Axis making it 40v20 and therefore quite unbalanced. So it is difficult with so few players to take such high stakes risks with balance issues. It is best to throw out some accuracy, no matter how badly it hurts, to acquire balance.

C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #19 on: July 12, 2020, 10:13:08 PM »
I'm not seeing anything close to what anyone in the current design team would do to make using the whole plane set practical. Guess its been perfected to perfection.  :D
« Last Edit: July 12, 2020, 10:15:32 PM by Arlo »

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15738
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2020, 10:19:55 PM »
Well, I thought we were going to have a decent discussion. I did not realize you were just being a troll.

Sigh.
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #21 on: July 12, 2020, 10:22:13 PM »
I'm not seeing anything close to what anyone in the current design team would do to make using the whole plane set practical. Guess its been perfected to perfection.  :D

Sorry, Arlo. I misread your OP as a philosophical discussion about designing events. When you say "whole plane set" do you mean Aces High inventory or Dieppe OOB?
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #22 on: July 12, 2020, 10:31:30 PM »
There's enough CM's from my squad, already.

Not a condition or requirement for CM application review.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline AKKuya

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2640
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2020, 10:38:14 PM »
The B-29 is not banned. However, the B-25C is in Scenarios.

Philosophically, all fighters and bombers are lethal in their own way.  Reality in WW2, all were lethal in their own way but some were outmatched by others when they clashed in the sky.

Aces High, Da Game:

B-25C with formation just like Bostons in Special Events are flying coffins.  LW fighters can send them to the ground very easy due to lack of defensive capability.  Why?  Mission planning may not be able to use them in a proper fashion due to limitations of terrain, objectives, and player turnout.

Insane philosophical thinking that would never be used in WW2 but perfectly fine in a virtual world.  A single B-25C with glass nose option giving the 10 50. cals in the front.  A only in the insaneness of some bomber players, who shall not be named, a Scenario/FSO/TFT with a squadron of single B-25Cs with bombs and front .50 cals would be a fun event. 

Fly to a target with escort, drop bombs on target with dive bombing (no bombsight), and dogfight the enemy fighters with the escort fighters in the weeds.  It's not a question about the enemy shooting down the B-25Cs.  The question is how LONG it will take them?  Plus, how many enemy fighters will be shot down in the process?

Fair?  Probably not for either side.
Balanced ? same as above.
Fun?  I'll let the community answer that.  You know what my answer would be.


Chuck Norris can pick oranges from an apple tree and make the best lemonade in the world. Every morning when you wake up, swallow a live toad. Nothing worse can happen to you for the rest of the day. They say money can't buy happiness. I would like the opportunity to find out. Why be serious?

Offline Guppy35

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 20385
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2020, 11:32:30 PM »
I love philosophical discussions. I am currently reading Trotsky's In Defense of Marxism, which may not qualify as philosophy in many circles, but it should for this crowd. I have found in the past this is not the optimal forum for such discussions. However, because of the subject matter in this particular case, it fits.

Designing an event is not an easy task. I have had opinions of designs since my first involvement in Special Events (Operation Downfall). I now wear the designer cap and there is a very specific recipe for designing a perfect event which has never been done. I have found certain ingredients which must be included in said recipe, but maybe not the perfect amount. My first FSO design as lead designer was met with criticism before Frame 1 from Dantoo. It was a nice christening and I respect Dantoo's opinions on designs more than anyone else's in the game. Dantoo plays the game a specific way and his perception is different from mine, Brooke's, Spikes's, Nef's, and anyone else's. I weigh equally his compliments and his complaints.

I have been the obnoxious, whiny participant and I have been the designer. I have occupied the terrain in between as well. What I can tell you is that every designer makes mistakes and guesses incorrectly. What I believe to be my best design to this point, some hated. Others agreed that it was the best design of my portfolio. Point being, there will always be aspects that players did not like. As a CM, I am privileged to get sneak peaks at future events and influence them before they are published. When this was not the case, I often wondered how the design got past the entire CM Team without someone advising against certain aspects. I am not sure of how it was done before me, but it seems that most events are either designed by committee or are placed in front of a review board prior to publishing, as they should. So, I can tell you that most event designs you see for the first time have been scrutinized by a team of knowledgeable and capable people. The result is the amalgamation of critics plus the lead designer's thoughts.

 Must be nice not having to endure all the crap the design team I was on had to put up with.
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline LCADolby

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7321
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2020, 12:00:22 AM »
     I can't speak for scenarios but from my observations, the recent FSO's I have partaken in are the most balanced I have ever seen. The recent designs especially have to be commended. Years ago it was simply "this axis aircraft does this 1 thing better at altitude X, therefore it's better.. aaaand handicapped." Nowadays there appears to be a lot more professionalism and thought into plane comparison balance and the tasks they've been assigned.


     I imagine the main concern for FSO design philosophy are the players. The human factor of the flyers I have observed include (not comprehensive);
Unread/unheard/ignored orders. Intoxication. Poor Planning. Poor preparation. General incompetence. Poor Fuel management. Skill gap. Squad/player withdrawal.

     A great example of the issues of the unpredictable human factor are of a particularly conceited squad commander, that took his allied bombers off the set orders of the CiC, leading them into a slaughter without the fighter escort it should have had. Then taking an entirely unallocated aircraft from the CiC in another frame.
     It would have been acceptable to hear that particular leader be philosophical afterwards, but instead disappointingly chastised the design/set up, despite of the former issue being entirely self inflicted, and the latter in planning.
     I believe no amount of Design Philosophising will ever predict or be able counter such brazen roguery or lack of judgement, especially as such actions have such a clear effect on the outcome on not 1 but 2 entire squad's experience.

     The recent FSO's are greatly improved over previous years, I'm sure if the players policed themselves the experience would improve even further. I'm rarely positive about anything, but the current CM team are doing a grand job in FSO.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 12:02:14 AM by LCADolby »
JG5 "Eismeer"
YouTube+Twitch - 20Dolby10


"BE a man and shoot me in the back" - pez

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2020, 12:37:28 AM »
Must be nice not having to endure all the crap the design team I was on had to put up with.

It is nice, admittedly. They are far from perfect and at times may seem even poor, but we are striving for that perfect middle road. I think there aren't enough critics, actually. It seems that every scenario gets an average of +4 in Brooke's rating system. That means the team feels that we did well and continue doing the same thing. The truth may be much different, but we can only work with what is given to us. If no one critiques, how can it improve?

Discussions such as these are necessary for events to continue and to improve. I think every designer on the CM Team is open to criticism, which is another nicety that has not always been present.
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2020, 10:44:34 AM »

I personally don't enjoy late war Pacific stuff as the plane matchups become quite unbalanced after ~1943, so when tasked, I try to avoid the 1945 stuff. For the majority of pilots, unbalanced = not fun.


Sometimes one has to set aside their personal dislikes which are couched under the guise of 'unbalanced.' The fear of F4Us in a scenario has always used such an overinflated excuse. It casts the F4U fans in the game completely aside with no effort being made to balance things otherwise. Yes, that includes an abundance of N1Ks, Ki-84s (not all that different from Perdue's description of how Dieppe was made playable). The CM team would then be tasked with trying to address player perception that late Japanese warplanes could not possibly survive the onslaught of any model of F4U. I suspect that such a task is so unsavory to the personal joys of a number of CM's biases that the effort would seem insurmountable.

Well, I thought we were going to have a decent discussion. I did not realize you were just being a troll.

Sigh.

Well, that was both a defensive and weak response to my charge of not even trying to explore options in applying the entire AH inventory, if possible. I never claimed it would be easy but, apparently, layering excuses to not make the attempt was easier. Addition by subtraction? Does asking something harder of you really equate to 'trolling' in your mind?  ;)

Offline LCADolby

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7321
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2020, 11:03:09 AM »
This 'philosophical discussion' seems to have just outed itself for being a guise for "CMs don't include my favourite plane so I'm going on a lengthy gripe/troll".  Jolly Good Show Arlo :bhead
JG5 "Eismeer"
YouTube+Twitch - 20Dolby10


"BE a man and shoot me in the back" - pez

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24759
Re: The philosophical, practical and honest goals of scenario design
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2020, 11:09:50 AM »
This 'philosophical discussion' seems to have just outed itself for being a guise for "CMs don't include my favourite plane so I'm going on a lengthy gripe/troll".  Jolly Good Show Arlo :bhead

So, my example of what is 'fair' or 'fun' for the community in scenarios was not supposed to be expressed in response to the same from a CM? Oh, Dolby, Dolby, Dolby. Did you intend to offer a post where you either wanted to offer a way to be more inclusive, regarding the the inventory or wanted to back up a reasonable excuse not to be? Yes? No? Maybe?  :D