P-39Qs for Tali-Ihantala

[oboe]

Devil505, you mentioned in another thread you wanted to make sure there were some Soviet P-39Qs available for the October scenario.  I've thought about this also.  I have several P-39Qs in game and perhaps could help also.

The default skin is a great-looking Airacobra, but I'm not sure what unit its from or where it saw action.   I have a couple of VVS P-39Qs in-game; one from 16 GIAP and one from 30 GIAP.  Not sure if either saw service in Tali-Ihantala, or if that is a requirement for flying a skin in the scenario.  The obvious choice is to adopt Fencer's red-nosed 19 GIAP P-39Q since that is the P-39Q unit listed in the scenario's Order of Battle.  Is that what you were planning to do?

There is also an intriguing P-39Q that has been restored and is on display at the Aviation Museum of Central Finland in Tikkakosk.  Here's a link:
https://lend-lease.net/gallery-en/p-39q-airacobra-from-tikkakoski-museum-finland/

This aircraft belonged to 103 GIAP and ran out of fuel and crashed, in the scenario area, just before the time frame of the scenario.  So it's unit was there for the battle.

Bell had its own unique font for the tail serial numbers, different from the stenciled font used by the AAF.  I can't recall where I got this example but this it - seems like kind of a "mod"/ fat, rounded look for the 1940s:



Lemme know if there's anyway I can help.   

EDIT:  Are you aware of any differences between the templates of the P-39D and P-39Q?  As far as I can tell, during development, the engine was upgraded and propeller changed, wing armament changed along with some fuel tank and armor plate changes - but I don't know of anything that would impact the panel lines or rivet detail between the "D" and "Q" types of the P-39...

[Devil 505]

I'm still piecing together all the differences that changed from the D through the Q. The easiest to spot change is already present in the 3D model, being the vents on the nose hatches. I've seen line drawings showing a different pattern to the upper wing hatches, but I've seen zero photographic evidence of them being different.

The problem being that the Q made up about half of the total P-39 production and these also show differences between production blocks.

I may end up making templates for early and late Q models. I've already done the same thing with the D by having a separate template for the P-400. (There are more visual distinctions between the D and P-400 than the D and Q)

I plan on updating Fencer's 19 GIAP skin first, but in researching the plane I have found no photos of the real plane and I question the validity of that scheme. Seems like another case of one artist playing fast and loose with a depiction years ago and now we have dozens of variations of the same incorrect scheme. I asked Lyric to do some sleuthing about this scheme. Hopefully he comes up with something.

If The Red nose scheme ends up being a bust, I'll probably skin another plane from 19 GIAP or one from 191 IAP, who also participated at Tali-Ihantala.

[oboe]

Ah, of course, it makes sense that upgrading the engines might impact panel lines AFA access panels, and the corresponding rivets.

I didn't know about so many distinctions between the P-400 and P-39D - I just thought the main difference was a 20mm vs a 37mm in the nose, and then some internal changes like switching over to the English oxygen system components.

[Devil 505]

Ah, of course, it makes sense that upgrading the engines might impact panel lines AFA access panels, and the corresponding rivets.

I didn't know about so many distinctions between the P-400 and P-39D - I just thought the main difference was a 20mm vs a 37mm in the nose, and then some internal changes like switching over to the English oxygen system components.

I first noticed a navigation/position light just behind the doors on the P-400.




Then I noticed an extra, large, hole or piped port on the right gun access panel that is not seen on the D.




P-400


P-39D (Also not the square hatch on the front end of the panel. That is not found on P-400's)

There's a smaller lamp on the underside of the starboard wing near the insignia, smaller than the landing light found on the port wing. The three colored lamps under the starboard wing tip are not present on any P-400's - but they seem to be only on some individual P-39's of all types. Not sure what their purpose is for, but the Brits did not want them.


P-400


P-39D

[oboe]

Great attention to detail!

Those 3 underwing lamps are for signaling - to airfield I assume (in case of radio failure?).   Just guessing, maybe they were intending for communications with ground forces during joint operations?   P-51, P-38 have them too (on P-38 they are under the rear fuselage).
Guess it was an AAF thing.  IIRC, in DCS's P-51 you can control them.
     

[Devil 505]

Great attention to detail!

Those 3 underwing lamps are for signaling - to airfield I assume (in case of radio failure?).   Just guessing, maybe they were intending for communications with ground forces during joint operations?   P-51, P-38 have them too (on P-38 they are under the rear fuselage).
Guess it was an AAF thing.  IIRC, in DCS's P-51 you can control them.
   

They're on U.S, Navy planes too.

[Devil 505]

Looks like 191 IAP is out as an alternative to 19 GIAP.

I found this decal sheet with a nice looking profile.



But according to my preferred source on VVS units, 191 IAP never used P-39's. The transitioned from P-40's to LA-5's.

http://allaces.ru/sssr/struct/p/iap191.php

[Devil 505]

Looks like that profile was based on schemes typical of 196 IAP.

http://ava.org.ru/iap/196.htm

196 IAP did indeed participate in the battle of Tali-Ihantala.

[Fencer51]

Greetings..

I checked my archives and I do not have an electronic photo of the White 10 - 19 Giap Plane.  I cannot get to my books at the moment.

I did find a profile and other info on the plane..

This was the pilot...  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Kutakhov

Gotta believe that his plane has a photo somewhere that the commonly held decals and profiles are based upon.

https://www.super-hobby.com/products/Bell-P-39Q-N-Russian-Cobras.html

https://www.16va.be/19_gviap_eng_part1.html


Cheers

[Devil 505]

Gotta believe that his plane has a photo somewhere that the commonly held decals and profiles are based upon.

I there may be one somewhere since it has one detail I find very peculiar - the red nose only extends down to the gray underside paint. Every depiction is like this. I would think that anyone painting their nose red would go for total coverage and not only do the top and sides. 

[Fencer51]

Here is the profile I had and it's source..

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39_018.html

[Devil 505]

Here is the profile I had and it's source..

http://www.clavework-graphics.co.uk/aircraft/bell_p39/P39_018.html

I've seen other work by this artist. His stuff is awful when it comes to accuracy. I disregard all of is profiles as a matter of course. In this case, he seems to follow the conventions of the other profile artists who have done this scheme, only his red is very orange.

[oboe]

I think Fencer made the right call with his version of red vs the orange evident in the claveworks profile.

Seeing all these photos of the P-39 remind me how slick an aircraft it was.  What beautiful curves for an early War aircraft.   Dead sexy.

[Devil 505]

I think Fencer made the right call with his version of red vs the orange evident in the claveworks profile.

Seeing all these photos of the P-39 remind me how slick an aircraft it was.  What beautiful curves for an early War aircraft.   Dead sexy.

I agree. If not for the awkward looking canopy with the car doors, it would be regarded as one of the truly beautiful fighters of the era.

[Vraciu]

I agree. If not for the awkward looking canopy with the car doors, it would be regarded as one of the truly beautiful fighters of the era.

The canopy has nice lines, just too much framing.