Author Topic: Balance - April 2021 FSO - Velikiye Luki - Little Stalingrad of the North  (Read 3760 times)

Offline RufusLeaking

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For discussion, some possible adjustments to give the Russian side some hope of being competitive:

Remove max from LA-5s

Add cannons to C.205 (MiG 3s)

Let 2nd hour planes be the same as 1st hour.

Allow 2nd hour launch (even 1st hour launch) closer to target.

Put a lower altitude limit or low overcast deck.

Add a better Yak.

I'm typing this now because the Russian field to defend was destroyed, and only one hangar was down on the target field. It was a three sector flight against almost 2:1 odds. I am a huge fan of FSO, but, based on points, it made more sense not to up and give kills to the Axis with so little chance of scoring hits on the target.

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Offline Devil 505

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Listen, if the pilots in the LA's you have refuse to engage, you have not right to complain.
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Offline AKDogg

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lol, your CIC had alot of fighters go to A204 to defend your A20's which they failed to do so.  There was only 14 of us AK's defending A204 and we each had 2 to 3 fighters on us.  Allied need to distribute there fighter cover better.  The Allied fighters successfully capped A204 but didn't protect the A20's.  We killed them then the Fighters finally came down on us and overwhelming us by 2:1 if not 3:1 odds.
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Offline RichardDarkwood

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Yak had no problems shooting one of my Ju-88's down.

Second hour we flew around for 45 minutes seeing no enemy. It wasn't until we dropped to the deck at A86 did we see anything.
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Offline RufusLeaking

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The frame is unbalanced. Let's look at the numbers for two frames.

   Frame 1:
   Allies: 66 pilots got 49 kills. Objects destroyed: 34
   Axis: 63 pilots got 92 kills. Objects destroyed: 45

   Frame 2:
   Allies: 63 pilots got 56 kills. Objects destroyed: 2
   Axis: 60 pilots got 88 kills. Objects destroyed: 32

   In both frames, the Axis completely destroyed their targets.

Compare weapons loadout and performance on the opposing aircraft. "It's the pilot, not the plane" is not always the answer.

Listen, if the pilots in the LA's you have refuse to engage, you have not right to complain.

Since the Axis actually lost the war, I do have the right to complain.

Yak had no problems shooting one of my Ju-88's down.

Second hour we flew around for 45 minutes seeing no enemy. It wasn't until we dropped to the deck at A86 did we see anything.

I didn't re-up 2nd hour as their was nothing to defend and bad aircraft options to attack a medium field.

On a more positive note, Darkwood, keep posting the videos.  :salute



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Offline captain1ma

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maybe its about tactics and not always about numbers? our tactics seem to work pretty good?

Offline RufusLeaking

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maybe its about tactics and not always about numbers? our tactics seem to work pretty good?

Tactics like carry more bombs, fly faster and perform better at altitude are definitely winners.
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Offline RichardDarkwood

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I didn't re-up 2nd hour as their was nothing to defend and bad aircraft options to attack a medium field.

On a more positive note, Darkwood, keep posting the videos.  :salute

The second hour was straight dogfighting and it was very fun. The videos are just for fun and mainly a recruiting tool for FSO. Getting the numbers in FSO up is my main goal.  :aok  :rock  :joystick:
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Offline Joker312

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He has a valid complaint.

The Yak9T, C205 (- cannon), Yak7b, P39d, P40e are no match for the Me109f or g, and the Fw190. The German fighters can dictate the fight at will with their superiority in climb, speed, maneuverability, and weapons load out.

I really don’t care, I am enjoying being the underdog and I know how hard it is to balance these FSO’s but be honest, if the roles were reversed, those dismissing these concerns would be complaining also.

Especially you Devil 505.

So cut the guy a break and listen to his suggestions like adults. There aren’t many of us left these days so it’s better to insure all participants are heard and their concerns are considered.

Salute mates.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2021, 09:20:58 AM by Joker312 »
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Offline Devil 505

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He has a valid complaint.

The Yak9T, C205 (- cannon), Yak7b, P39d, P40e are no match for the Me109f or g, and the Fw190. The German fighters can dictate the fight at will with their superiority in climb, speed, maneuverability, and weapons load out.

I really don’t care, I am enjoying being the underdog and I know how hard it is to balance these FSO’s but be honest, if the roles were reversed, those dismissing these concerns would be complaining also.

Especially you Devil 505.

So cut the guy a break and listen to his suggestions like adults. There aren’t many of us left these days so it’s better to insure all participants are heard and their concerns are considered.

Salute mates.

You should know me better than to just complain without having a leg or two to stand on. Unfortunately, bad arguments are exactly what RufLeak is making.
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Offline Joker312

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You are correct Devil, I know you.

You are just being you. It seems you will never be able to see another persons point of view.

A humble person should always consider someone's opinion and after discussion, the relative merits of the opinion can be addressed.

You know as well as I that there are sometimes lopsided FSO's. Its part of the limitations of the plane set and actual historic realities. The community goes to great lengths to create FSO's that are balanced and enjoyable for all participants. Most of the time they succeed but when a problem arises it should be discussed regardless if you agree with the complaint or not.

Just because you don't think its valid does not make it invalid.


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Offline Devil 505

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The frame is unbalanced. Let's look at the numbers for two frames.

   Frame 1:
   Allies: 66 pilots got 49 kills. Objects destroyed: 34
   Axis: 63 pilots got 92 kills. Objects destroyed: 45

   Frame 2:
   Allies: 63 pilots got 56 kills. Objects destroyed: 2
   Axis: 60 pilots got 88 kills. Objects destroyed: 32

   In both frames, the Axis completely destroyed their targets.

Compare weapons loadout and performance on the opposing aircraft. "It's the pilot, not the plane" is not always the answer.

Let's look at your numbers compared to just the success of the LA-5's in these frames.

In Frame 1, the Allies had 18 LA's. The managed only 10 kills in total, 9 of which were in the first sortie.

In Frame 2, the Allies only used 10 of the 16 LA's they were allowed to use. Those 10 pilots only achieved 7 kills in total, 2 of which were in the first sortie.

I'm highlighting the first sortie numbers because both frames were decided before the 2nd hour planes were enabled. Looking at the total kills does not paint the true picture.

So before you complain about the lack of firepower in the Yak-9 or C.205, you need to figure out why your side is failing to find success with your best overall plane.

The LA is a close match to both 109G-2 and 190A-5 at 20K. Below 12K it is completely dominant over the G-2 and A-5. The gun pack of the LA-5 packs a punch but has poor ballistics and firing rate, but the plane's performance should mean that you are able to close in on an enemy to a place where those issues are mitigated. Aggressively flown LA's are nearly impossible to shake in a either a 109G-2 or 190A-5. If the CiC fails to put the LA's in a place to be flown aggressively, and with a strength to do so, that's his fault. Frame 1, they were in a bad place. Frame 2, they were under strength.

I'm not saying that the Yak-9T pilots aren't in a difficult position, but it's really hard to quantify the disparity when the LA's are performing so poorly. If the kill totals showed that the Yaks were struggling while the LA's were scoring kills in bunches, I'd give credence to your thesis. But that is not the case.

Regarding the Yak and C.205,

Adding the C.205 mitigates the Yak's speed disadvantage at altitude. This should have allowed the Allies CiC to use the Yaks better to its strengths. It's a very good fighter at lower altitudes and the 37mm cannon is a monster against large targets. For the 109's to match that firepower, it requires using the performance sapping 20mm gondolas. Yaks and C.2's should be successful against 109's outfitted with them, and LA's will dominate them at every altitude.

Quote
Since the Axis actually lost the war, I do have the right to complain.

You really need to know when to play the "Historical Accuracy" card better.

First, there is no "Better Yak" as in January 1943. The Yak-9, M with 20mm cannon or T with the 37mm, is the best there was at the time - and January 1943 might be too early for either. The vast majority of Yaks at this time were Yak-1s and Yak-7's. The Yak-9U did not enter service for another year and a half. Your suggestion for a "better Yak" is as unfounded as the Axis would be asking for 109G-14's or 190A-8's.

Second, the MiG-3, which the C.205 represents, had a total production run of 3172 airframes, only 52 of which had 20mm cannons. That's .016% of the total built. All other MiG-3's had a combination of 7.62mm and 12.7mm machine guns, just like the C.205 minus the cannons. Furthermore, the final 30 cannon armed MiG's were built in April 1942 and it's anyone's guess which units received them or how many survived the 8 months of combat leading up to the battle of Velikiye Luki. The point being, the chances of there being even one cannon armed MiG-3 at Velikiye Luki in January 1943 is essentially zero.

Third, The Allies have the LA-5FN which is a type not introduced for another 6 months. The units in January had standard LA-5's with worse performance, higher weight, and worse visibility. Because AH only has the FN, The Allies have a better fighter than they should. By the same margin, the AH 190A-5 is worse than the 190A-3's and A-4's actually used at this battle. The performance differences within plane types (LA-5 to LA-5FN or 190A-4 to 190A-5) are not significant, but the performance gap between sides would be wider if we had the correct models. Would not not make a huge difference, but since you want to play the "Historical Accuracy" card, here we are.

The fact is, in January 1943, the Soviet air force struggled to compete on an equal footing against the Luftwaffe because they failed to employ their assets properly. Seems that this FSO is not far from history in this regard.



Here's the upshot, the Allies are at a natural disadvantage in fighters, but it's no worse than the Axis typically faces when the Allies have Jugs, Ponies, or Corsairs. Your side is doing poorly mostly because your pilots and planners are failing to use your assets to their strengths.
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Offline Devil 505

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You are correct Devil, I know you.

You are just being you. It seems you will never be able to see another persons point of view.

A humble person should always consider someone's opinion and after discussion, the relative merits of the opinion can be addressed.

You know as well as I that there are sometimes lopsided FSO's. Its part of the limitations of the plane set and actual historic realities. The community goes to great lengths to create FSO's that are balanced and enjoyable for all participants. Most of the time they succeed but when a problem arises it should be discussed regardless if you agree with the complaint or not.

Just because you don't think its valid does not make it invalid.

Except that I have. Read the long post I have made addressing his points.

My initial post may seem dismissive, but it does reflect what I've seen through two frames. In both cases, I saw full squadrons of LA's at 20K pass by/through my squad's formation and they kept on going without a second look. I never saw them again after the first pass. They were a non-factor for the most part.

Regardless of how good or bad the Yak-9 is, the Allies have no hope of winning when LA's are a non-factor. The Yak's have performed decently well in spite of the LA's.
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Offline RufusLeaking

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You really need to know when to play the "Historical Accuracy" card better.


If the goal of FSO is to exactly recreate history, then why bother playing?

I posted this on the encouragement of several Allied players as we commiserated on the loss. I'm open to reasonable suggestions on how to make it more balanced. Given the inherent superiority of Axis players, it should present no problem.

Anyways, I stopped trying to win the forums 15 years ago.  :bolt:
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Offline Devil 505

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If the goal of FSO is to exactly recreate history, then why bother playing?

Is that not what you were advocating for by saying this?

Quote
Since the Axis actually lost the war, I do have the right to complain.

Not sure how your statement is relevant otherwise.

What you wrote indicates to me that you think the Allies should not have a disadvantage in FSO because they eventually won the war historically.






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