Author Topic: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"  (Read 2068 times)

Offline oboe

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WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« on: November 02, 2021, 06:54:28 PM »
I don't have much background info on this one, but the nose art caught my eye, and the unusual pattern of antiglare paint- bare cowls - very minimal coverage on the engine nacelle.  Some profiles show her with the black de-icing boots on tails and wing, some just the tail.  I have one period B&W photo where she appears to have none (I think they were removed at some point). 

The 490th BG apparently started out as a Liberator group, but converted to B-17s in August 1944.  The Group flew 158 missions losing 22 aircraft, the lowest loss rate of all the 8th USAAF Bomb Groups.








« Last Edit: November 02, 2021, 07:17:48 PM by oboe »

Offline lyric1

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2021, 06:56:36 PM »
 :aok

Offline Devil 505

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2021, 09:35:05 PM »
Looking damn good so far.
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Offline FTJR

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2021, 10:54:47 PM »
looks good Oboe
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2021, 12:29:44 AM »
Gonna be a nice one. 
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Offline oboe

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2021, 09:04:25 AM »
These are the best sources I have for this aircraft.  I have pics of well-done plastic models and other color profiles too.  Most seem to favor including the leading edge black de-ice boots, but the period B&W photo doesn't show them.   The color photo below has me especially vexed - it looks more recent than a WWII color photo, but I can find no record of this aircraft having been restored.  The rudder in particular, looks rebuilt.  The four gigantic rivets along the rudder's leading edge look completely out-of-scale.

Also, are there any experts out there who know what the "+" preceding the ID letter "J" indicates?   I saw this on a later War image of E-RAT-ICATOR as well - post-Jan 1945, when the 8th AF really expanded it's use of colored bands and tail ID markings.








« Last Edit: November 03, 2021, 09:23:28 AM by oboe »

Offline Greebo

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2021, 12:35:54 PM »
Looks really good so far Oboe.

I'd say the colour photo is of a modern warbird judging by the shininess of the aircraft and the quality of the photo. Also the airframe code on the B&W photo is positioned lower down on the fin than the colour photo or your skin and appears to be painted in a light colour, perhaps red or yellow.

Not sure about the plus sign although I have seen it on 8th AF B-24s too, perhaps a flight leader's identification?


Offline Volron

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2021, 03:19:44 PM »
In the B&W photo, I'm not seeing the red stripe outside of the outboard engine like I do in the color photos, at least I don't see it going down the wing completely.  As Greebo pointed out, the ID number sits a little lower, and to me closer to the +J, almost touching.  The J appears wider at the base and sits closer to the rudder.  The + appears to be thicker as well and the heart also appears higher on the fuselage in the B&W.  Top of the heart appears just at the height of the stabilizer and a bit bigger.  Again, I'm looking at the B&W.  :aok

Think you can give us a better side shot on the aircraft, trying to match the B&W's angle?

Lyric, do you happen to have a bit more information on this gal, or can dig up more?
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2021, 04:05:16 PM »
The + is probably that squadron's format.   Some were plain, some underlined, some overlined.
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Offline lyric1

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2021, 04:11:45 PM »
In the B&W photo, I'm not seeing the red stripe outside of the outboard engine like I do in the color photos, at least I don't see it going down the wing completely.  As Greebo pointed out, the ID number sits a little lower, and to me closer to the +J, almost touching.  The J appears wider at the base and sits closer to the rudder.  The + appears to be thicker as well and the heart also appears higher on the fuselage in the B&W.  Top of the heart appears just at the height of the stabilizer and a bit bigger.  Again, I'm looking at the B&W.  :aok

Think you can give us a better side shot on the aircraft, trying to match the B&W's angle?

Lyric, do you happen to have a bit more information on this gal, or can dig up more?

I will take a look when I get off work. Oboe is very thorough on research so chances are what you see is what you get.

Offline lyric1

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2021, 01:14:50 AM »

Lyric, do you happen to have a bit more information on this gal, or can dig up more?

Have found these images so far.

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/39472

Plus an image of the crew. Not much help with what we need so far. I think the full colour photo Oboe posted of the plane is a screen shot from some SIM game. :headscratch:

http://www.americanairmuseum.com/media/31986

Facebook has been helpful.



Real colour image & red stripe visible on left elevator.



Defiantly a stripe seen on the tail in this image of her.




Partial stripe visible on left wing?








Some sister aircraft from the same squadron all have stripes. The + symbol looks to be part of the units identification.







Plenty Of colour photos showing red stripes in this link.

https://www.americanairmuseum.com/unit/474

A few examples.









Decal on Facebook I forgot.


« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 03:20:48 AM by lyric1 »

Offline oboe

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2021, 08:58:20 AM »
Fantastic stuff, lyric, thank you!

Images of the right side of tail especially helpful, I wasn't sure if the heart was duplicated there.  I can't replicate the name banner "Pudgy" at that location though - the B-17 skin map has only the left side of the tail turret and that is duplicated for the right side.  So we are stuck with the "Lorraine" banner on that side, except the name is backwards.  The reversed letters are evident only at very close range though.

I've made adjustments to the size and location of tail serial name and ID letters per the original B&W photo I posted.

The photos you've found also definitively answer for me the question about the black leading edge de-ice boots.  I won't include them.  While most color profiles I found show these, I suspect these are cases of the artist adding extra elements to make the work more visually interesting.   I think its likely the Fort arrived in theater in 1944 with these boots in place, but they were removed in due course - so they would've not been present by the time the nose art and number of missions matched the more famous images we see of the aircraft.

Interesting too how the right side of rudder is missing a patch of color.  Wonder if the rudder was damaged/repaired after it was painted red?

Offline Vraciu

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Offline oboe

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2021, 03:57:32 PM »
Holy cats, great find Vraciu!   :x

It says this group adopting the +/- symbols as an aid to identification.   

Offline Vraciu

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Re: WIP B-17G 490th BG 851st BS "Carolina Moon"
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2021, 06:21:37 PM »
Holy cats, great find Vraciu!   :x

It says this group adopting the +/- symbols as an aid to identification.

Yes, + is one squadron, _ is another, - is another, and plain is a fourth in some groups.
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