Can Aces High 3 and Aces High 2 Co-exist?

[Haskell]

At this point he needs to just lease out his networking solution to some of the bigger players

[CptTrips]

I dont understand why anyone would want AH2 back. Players arent going to log in just because AH2 is running. It is the same exact game with crappier graphics and no VR.

People with lower end systems (like Hajo) that don't have VR and don't want to build a new system?  GV'rs who don't like trees?  Old players that might enjoy coming back just for the nostalgia?

Also, creating another arena is only going to split the low population and give us LESS players per arena.

Dropping the sub may help, but now your cutting into Hitechs money and if he is just getting by as it is that will only bring the end quicker.

You say no one will like AH2 but you then say it will empty out AH3? 

I say it might bring back old players who didn't like AHIII. 
I say it might bring in some players who didn't like subscriptions and give you a chance to convince over time. 

Did you read the points I made in the provided link?  Rather than have to repeat them?





Max, the problem I see with 9.95/mo is that it still turns off all those players out there that don't like subscriptions.  They might drop a one time $19.99 or something.    I've bought a ton of games for a one time purchase that it would have been VERY difficult for me to be talked into a subscription. 

Hook'em with a one time purchase of the older version.  The reel them in with "oh man, but it is so much better over in AHIII! Go give that a try!"   
They will have at least had a chance over a couple of months to really learn to fly and fight in AHII without a subscription and meet people coming over from AHIII for an occasional nostalgia trip.  Maybe forming friendships.  Maybe joining a squd who's main activity is over in AHIII.  Think of it as a stealth outreach program.

I see current players adding it not converting back to it exclusively.

On the other hand, maybe it can get you some players that you are failing to convince with a 2-week trial and the friction of an on-going subscription.  As well as put some money in your pocket to get some AHIII work or advertising done.  The cost in bandwidth and hardware would be inconsequential.  Especially with only 150 players in the AHIII active.  It doesn't even require anything scary to change in AHIII for all those who fear change.   

There are never guarantees anything will ever work.  But at some point a drowning man has to be willing to at least lift a finger to try and save themselves.  Do SOMETHING.  Try SOMETHING.  If you are going to go down, go down exercising some free agency.  Go down fighting.  Just don't lay down like this was a hospice waiting for your personal RIP thread.

Or just default to the usual
"that will never work"
"can't try that"
"that's not guaranteed to work"
"no point in trying"
"Oh look another skins pack.  That's all we need."

Crap nevermind.  I forgot I'm not supposed to care anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness

[Max]

I dont understand why anyone would want AH2 back. Players arent going to log in just because AH2 is running. It is the same exact game with crappier graphics and no VR.

Read back thru this thread Fugi. A number of comments mention GV fights in AH2 as being more prolific, as well as a disdain for navigating the forest we have now. While the present day clouds, water and general land rendering is a step above in AH3, it also required those with older GPU's to upgrade or fall by the wayside. Quite a few did just that. I can't comment on VR as I've been reluctant to invest $500 +/- on the hardware. Those who crave it have it fully available in Melee. Just as a personal side note, I found it much easier to walk in tracers in AH2. Perhaps my eyes were better then but at age 69 I have difficulty with the tracers/sprites/hits.

If you reduce the aircraft to only mid and early aircraft everyone will just switch to the fastest plane with the best guns of that set and all we will see is that plane running from others instead of ponies and yaks.

Perhaps, but Pony D's, La7's , Dora's and Dash 4-U's won't be leading the retreats...and perhaps new and old players will try on aircraft they never before experienced.

Also, creating another arena is only going to split the low population and give us LESS players per arena.

To the contrary, I believe any depletion from Melee to AH2 would be short lived, and overall, new blood would populate the game.

Dropping the sub may help, but now your cutting into Hitechs money and if he is just getting by as it is that will only bring the end quicker.

Rolling plane sets was the first thing that drove away the majority of players in Warbirds back in the day, I doubt it would work here any better. While you are fulling into fighting in fighters, the majority of those playing now are not. Most like to bomb or grab bases, or just defend by porking bases or running resupply. MOST do not like to fight remember all those guys that run away in the fast planes?

No one, including myself said anything about rolling planesets.

To answer the OP, can they run both AH2 and AH3, sure, I run both on my computer, I have lots of older films that seem to run better on AH2. Should they run both? I dont think so, as I said whats the point, no VR and crappier graphics.

Your opinion. The fact remains that the game as it now stands is losing ground on a steady slippery slope. My goal is to prevent that from ending the game due to the  player attrition and INCREASE revenue streams to HTC.

[CAV]

Rolling plane sets was the first thing that drove away the majority of players in Warbirds back in the day,

Rolling Plane Sets was was one of the better ideas over there....... But furballers hated it, just like they hate having to fly more than 5 mins to get back their furball.

Most ex-AW players I meet in IL-2, WW2OL or DCS didn't leave because they needed a High End PC..... they left because of poor play play.

CAV

[CptTrips]

Also, creating another arena is only going to split the low population and give us LESS players per arena.

To clarify, I was suggesting AHII running on it's own blade server.  It's own ip address.   

AHIII client would know nothing about AHII. 

AHII client doesn't need to know anything about AHIII.

Separate servers and clients.  Not just another arena listed in AHIII.

Might need a new forum area on the BBS. 

[The Fugitive]

People with lower end systems (like Hajo) that don't have VR and don't want to build a new system?  GV'rs who don't like trees?  Old players that might enjoy coming back just for the nostalgia?

Hajo is like those you call nostalgic and he DID come back. He didnt leave because his computer couldnt handle it, he left again because there isnt the same fun any more. Those that play dont play like we use to in the old days so it just doesnt have the same "pazazz" it use to. He wont upgrade his computer to do VR because he knows the the game play waits and VR wont cure that.

You say no one will like AH2 but you then say it will empty out AH3? 

I say it might bring back old players who didn't like AHIII. 
I say it might bring in some players who didn't like subscriptions and give you a chance to convince over time. 

Did you read the points I made in the provided link?  Rather than have to repeat them?

I was going off what the OP suggested when spliting the arena/blade He was hoping for 400 in AH2 and 100 In AH3 I dont think we will ever see those numbers again even if the game was free and had unlimited advertising. Yes I read the other post, I think its all a dream. While Im sure HTC has AH2 on an old drive someplace I very much doubt he'd put it out again unless its a "last breath" type thing. Even with a one time feethere just isnt going to be enough intrest in an old game with crappy graphics.





Max, the problem I see with 9.95/mo is that it still turns off all those players out there that don't like subscriptions.  They might drop a one time $19.99 or something.    I've bought a ton of games for a one time purchase that it would have been VERY difficult for me to be talked into a subscription. 

Hook'em with a one time purchase of the older version.  The reel them in with "oh man, but it is so much better over in AHIII! Go give that a try!"   
They will have at least had a chance over a couple of months to really learn to fly and fight in AHII without a subscription and meet people coming over from AHIII for an occasional nostalgia trip.  Maybe forming friendships.  Maybe joining a squd who's main activity is over in AHIII.  Think of it as a stealth outreach program.

I see current players adding it not converting back to it exclusively.

On the other hand, maybe it can get you some players that you are failing to convince with a 2-week trial and the friction of an on-going subscription.  As well as put some money in your pocket to get some AHIII work or advertising done.  The cost in bandwidth and hardware would be inconsequential.  Especially with only 150 players in the AHIII active.  It doesn't even require anything scary to change in AHIII for all those who fear change.   

There are never guarantees anything will ever work.  But at some point a drowning man has to be willing to at least lift a finger to try and save themselves.  Do SOMETHING.  Try SOMETHING.  If you are going to go down, go down exercising some free agency.  Go down fighting.  Just don't lay down like this was a hospice waiting for your personal RIP thread.

Or just default to the usual
"that will never work"
"can't try that"
"that's not guaranteed to work"
"no point in trying"
"Oh look another skins pack.  That's all we need."

Crap nevermind.  I forgot I'm not supposed to care anymore.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness
[/quote]

I agree with the last, Id love to see him try something, anything even if it just a little something as a thankyou to all of us who have been sending him money month in and month out for 20 years. Get rid of most of the trees, get rid of the big maps.

Read back thru this thread Fugi. A number of comments mention GV fights in AH2 as being more prolific, as well as a disdain for navigating the forest we have now. While the present day clouds, water and general land rendering is a step above in AH3, it also required those with older GPU's to upgrade or fall by the wayside. Quite a few did just that. I can't comment on VR as I've been reluctant to invest $500 +/- on the hardware. Those who crave it have it fully available in Melee. Just as a personal side note, I found it much easier to walk in tracers in AH2. Perhaps my eyes were better then but at age 69 I have difficulty with the tracers/sprites/hits.

My computer is 10 years old I7, 16 MB ram, Nvidia GTX 1060 it run my quest2 with ease. At 62 I dont shoot any better with it, but it sure makes dieing a lot more fun.

Perhaps, but Pony D's, La7's , Dora's and Dash 4-U's won't be leading the retreats...and perhaps new and old players will try on aircraft they never before experienced.

Your just changing to runners, instead of ponies it will be a P38, or KI84 doing the running and thats what people will be using to chase them.

[quot]Also, creating another arena is only going to split the low population and give us LESS players per arena.

To the contrary, I believe any depletion from Melee to AH2 would be short lived, and overall, new blood would populate the game.

Dropping the sub may help, but now your cutting into Hitechs money and if he is just getting by as it is that will only bring the end quicker.


No one, including myself said anything about rolling planesets.


Your opinion. The fact remains that the game as it now stands is losing ground on a steady slippery slope. My goal is to prevent that from ending the game due to the  player attrition and INCREASE revenue streams to HTC.

[/quote]

Eagler mentioned rolling plane sets.

I agree is losing ground, I have been saying it for some time now. Unfortunately Hitech seem reluctant to make ANY changes. Maybe he's afriad any change will finish off what he has now. Maybe he just doesnt want to be bothered with old grumps any more. Maybe he's busy working in a new field, who knows.

I'd love to see some changes just for the sake of something different like in the old days when a new plane, vehicle or graphic animation came along.

[100Coogn]

Max, the problem I see with 9.95/mo is that it still turns off all those players out there that.  They might drop a one time $19.99 or something.    I've bought a ton of games for a one time purchase that it would have been VERY difficult for me to be talked into a subscription. 

A one time game purchase seems to be working for MSFS 2020.  FSX did pretty good with it too.
Sure you can make ingame purchases, but at least your not bound by a subscription.

Coogan

[CptTrips]

I agree is losing ground, I have been saying it for some time now. Unfortunately Hitech seem reluctant to make ANY changes. Maybe he's afriad any change will finish off what he has now. Maybe he just doesnt want to be bothered with old grumps any more. Maybe he's busy working in a new field, who knows.

I'd love to see some changes just for the sake of something different like in the old days when a new plane, vehicle or graphic animation came along.

The problem I see with a new vehicle or plane is it will probably not change the revenue trajectory.  A new obscure French fighter, while cool to 2 or 3 WWII nerds here, is not likely to bring in new players if the current line up doesn't already. 

I'm fairly sure HT's 3D modeling and texturing skills are limited.  So at the least he would have to hire contract work.  That might be expensive to make no difference to the subscription count.  It's also an expensive way to keep the current players happy as it appears skin packs are sufficient at least enough to prevent closing accounts.  But bottom line, that's money spent that won't bring in new revenue.

The idea behind repurposing AHII, to in effect generate revenue from that written code a second time, is that should probably be the lowest hanging fruit.  That code should just be laying around on an archive DVD somewhere.  I'm not suggesting making any improvements to it so no 3D artist needed.  Just some account management layer changes to make that a one time purchase instead of a monthly billing cycle for that particular sku.  (Assuming he has labeled branches of his code and is not just working on the one and only copy of the code and can't reconstitute a previous version.  I hope that is not how he ran his source control.  I'd be shocked.)

Anything else meaningful would probably require a lot more work and anything meaningful would require gameplay changes to AHIII which I can understand is risky. 

But there is also a risk in NOT doing something.  If you are piloting a plane pointed toward the dirt side of the world and you just stay frozen and refuse to try anything....well that IS guaranteed to not work.  At some point before you impact, you might want to take a risk and try SOME kind of movement of the control surfaces.  Roll the dice or eject.

What if he threw AHII on Steam as a new sku for 19.99?
Could he sell 1000 units or so?  Even for an indie game that is fairly conservative.
After Steams cut and taxes clear maybe 12k? (That's like getting 100 or so AHIII subscriptions for 6 months but you get it up front without the risk of them bailing after the first month.)

Could that get the remaining planes in AHIII update to current standard?
Enough left over for another plane?
Would that be 1000 or so players you are establishing a relationship with that might eventually be coaxed over to AHIII at some point?  If you converted 1 out of 10, you have 100 new AHIII subscriptions.

Honestly, what other option could realistically bring in 100 new AHIII 6-month subscriptions anytime soon?
Honestly, is there a really better option on the table?

I mean, what are the other available options to TRUELY alter the revenue trajectory?

Will a new plane?
Will twiddle scoring algorithms?
Will a new skins pack?
Setting up tables at air shows and handing out t-shirts?
All the current players telling their friends about the game?  Like they haven't already?

Most everything I've seen people suggest might make things nicer for them here in AHIII, but I've yet to see anything targeted at bringing in NEW players.

The biggest point of friction I see is not how players fly.  I've seen all the same stuff since beta. 

In my opinion it is the subscription model.  For many people that is a deal breaker.  (Hint: it's not 1999 any more.)  It's going to take a lot more than a two-week-take-it-or-leave-it trial period. It's going to be a LOT harder sell than it was in 1999.  They have too many other options.  You are going to have to work a lot harder for that conversion.  A one time buy with free online access looks a lot more like IL2 or DCS to them.  Then maybe you'll have plenty of time to convince them that upgrading to AHIII is worth it. 

An AHII server with new players would be a great place for the trainer corps to actually make a real difference.  How much are they really making with the current AHIII player base?  I've not seen two players in that arena in years.  It may have happened now and then, but I missed it.  An AHII server with 1000 new players would really be a place to get traction.

Also thing sunk-cost psychology.  They download a two-week trial game for free, if anything gets in their way it is nothing to delete and go download one of the hundred other game demos on Steam.  If they've already bought it, if they bail you already have their money, but also they have already sunk the cost so they have more incentive to take some more time to try and learn the game.  They own it.  They have all the time in the world to learn it.

[The Fugitive]

The problem I see with a new vehicle or plane is it will probably not change the revenue trajectory.  A new obscure French fighter, while cool to 2 or 3 WWII nerds here, is not likely to bring in new players if the current line up doesn't already. 

I'm fairly sure HT's 3D modeling and texturing skills are limited.  So at the least he would have to hire contract work.  That might be expensive to make no difference to the subscription count.  It's also an expensive way to keep the current players happy as it appears skin packs are sufficient at least enough to prevent closing accounts.  But bottom line, that's money spent that won't bring in new revenue.

The idea behind repurposing AHII, to in effect generate revenue from that written code a second time, is that should probably be the lowest hanging fruit.  That code should just be laying around on an archive DVD somewhere.  I'm not suggesting making any improvements to it so no 3D artist needed.  Just some account management layer changes to make that a one time purchase instead of a monthly billing cycle for that particular sku.  (Assuming he has labeled branches of his code and is not just working on the one and only copy of the code and can't reconstitute a previous version.  I hope that is not how he ran his source control.  I'd be shocked.)

Anything else meaningful would probably require a lot more work and anything meaningful would require gameplay changes to AHIII which I can understand is risky. 

But there is also a risk in NOT doing something.  If you are piloting a plane pointed toward the dirt side of the world and you just stay frozen and refuse to try anything....well that IS guaranteed to not work.  At some point before you impact, you might want to take a risk and try SOME kind of movement of the control surfaces.  Roll the dice or eject.

What if he threw AHII on Steam as a new sku for 19.99?
Could he sell 1000 units or so?  Even for an indie game that is fairly conservative.
After Steams cut and taxes clear maybe 12k? (That's like getting 100 or so AHIII subscriptions for 6 months but you get it up front without the risk of them bailing after the first month.)

Could that get the remaining planes in AHIII update to current standard?
Enough left over for another plane?
Would that be 1000 or so players you are establishing a relationship with that might eventually be coaxed over to AHIII at some point?  If you converted 1 out of 10, you have 100 new AHIII subscriptions.

Honestly, what other option could realistically bring in 100 new AHIII 6-month subscriptions anytime soon?
Honestly, is there a really better option on the table?

I mean, what are the other available options to TRUELY alter the revenue trajectory?

Will a new plane?
Will twiddle scoring algorithms?
Will a new skins pack?
Setting up tables at air shows and handing out t-shirts?
All the current players telling their friends about the game?  Like they haven't already?

Most everything I've seen people suggest might make things nicer for them here in AHIII, but I've yet to see anything targeted at bringing in NEW players.

The biggest point of friction I see is not how players fly.  I've seen all the same stuff since beta. 

In my opinion it is the subscription model.  For many people that is a deal breaker.  (Hint: it's not 1999 any more.)  It's going to take a lot more than a two-week-take-it-or-leave-it trial period. It's going to be a LOT harder sell than it was in 1999.  They have too many other options.  You are going to have to work a lot harder for that conversion.  A one time buy with free online access looks a lot more like IL2 or DCS to them.  Then maybe you'll have plenty of time to convince them that upgrading to AHIII is worth it. 

An AHII server with new players would be a great place for the trainer corps to actually make a real difference.  How much are they really making with the current AHIII player base?  I've not seen two players in that arena in years.  It may have happened now and then, but I missed it.  An AHII server with 1000 new players would really be a place to get traction.

Also thing sunk-cost psychology.  They download a two-week trial game for free, if anything gets in their way it is nothing to delete and go download one of the hundred other game demos on Steam.  If they've already bought it, if they bail you already have their money, but also they have already sunk the cost so they have more incentive to take some more time to try and learn the game.  They own it.  They have all the time in the world to learn it.

I said "I'd love to see some changes just for the sake of something different". In the old days it was a new plane. I know that isnt going to happen these days which is why Id be happy with 60-70% of the trees disappearing, or the map rotation reset to exclude the big maps. I played in the days when we had very few maps and would be ok with 3 in rotation. And all of these are just for a selfish reason, for those of us that have been here forever to have a bit of a switch up.

To bring in new players, I dont think there is anything short of a huge influx of cash that could do that. Adding AH2 isnt going to bring in new players, at best it could bring in a few of the old timers. I think Hitechs best chance to bring in new blood is to open a set of planes and GVs that are free forever to be used in the MA. While a rebranding would be the best way to go ( a lot of bad blood for many with AH, many believe the "Free to Play" was a scam as it was really only 2 weeks free to play), maybe a "Under NEW Management" with a relaunch on Steam with the free plane/GV group as the update to entice new players to try it out. Add with that, pay a few of these Youtubers with a million followers to play the game for a few weeks and broadcast it.

However, all this takes time and money to put together. The real thing to look at here is Hitech willing to go that extra mile one more time?

[CptTrips]

To bring in new players, I dont think there is anything short of a huge influx of cash that could do that. Adding AH2 isnt going to bring in new players, at best it could bring in a few of the old timers. I think Hitechs best chance to bring in new blood is to open a set of planes and GVs that are free forever to be used in the MA. While a rebranding would be the best way to go ( a lot of bad blood for many with AH, many believe the "Free to Play" was a scam as it was really only 2 weeks free to play), maybe a "Under NEW Management" with a relaunch on Steam with the free plane/GV group as the update to entice new players to try it out. Add with that, pay a few of these Youtubers with a million followers to play the game for a few weeks and broadcast it.

I would agree that would be another reasonable option to try and drive new traffic.  I've suggested that before.  But that is making changes to AHIII which seemed to be off the table for the "don't change anything....except the outcome" crowd. 

Adding AHII would not have required changing AHIII in any way.

But either way...try SOMETHING.

[DmonSlyr]

Free spit5s and 109fs would go a long way. I dong know why free H2H worked, but somehow free planes in the MA wouldn't. I believe it would very easily entice people to pay the subscription to fly a better plane. The free spit5 and 109f would not be super planes and no player could dominate with them. It would just give them a chance to play the game after a year years if they don't have 2 free weeks anymore. It would allow players to learn the MA before buying, it would create more fights in better planes and be no risk to anyone's fun as they know they are in inferior planes.

We've had this discussion before about bringing back AH2. While I was originally on board with it, it think. I dont think it would really bring that many peeps back. I recon you might have about 15-20 players in there max, and that would still be boring on huge maps.

[Eagler]

A free 109f might save me $15 a month

Everyone wants everything for free theses days..just a bunch of spoil brats really

Eagler

[DmonSlyr]

A free 109f might save me $15 a month

Everyone wants everything for free theses days..just a bunch of spoil brats really

Eagler

That's what happens when you go from a quality economy where people don't care about spending more for better products. To a cheap economy, where everyone has to buy things as cheap as possible from a poor non regulated low tax country with almost slave labor so they can save a few dollars.

I can promise you that most players in a 109f or spitv wouldn't be top ace killers. They would be very challenging in today's arenas. It would just give people a longer chance to understand and learn the game. I think that is what is really missing. This would seriously entice people to pay for a subscription to get a better plane.

[Eagler]

We should be thankful HT hasn't tried to keep up with inflation

Some are happy spending $1.99 20 times a month in their game than paying say a monthly fee of $15 as it "feels" less expensive

To me $15 is worth logging on nightly at 8pm est to see about 100 others looking for action

No other ww2 a2a server anywhere has that action as I have looked

Eagler

[CptTrips]

We've had this discussion before about bringing back AH2. While I was originally on board with it, it think. I dont think it would really bring that many peeps back. I recon you might have about 15-20 players in there max, and that would still be boring on huge maps.

AHII had some smaller maps carried over from AHI, didn't they?

Regardless, maps can be player-made content so that is easily fixable without HT, as the single developer, being a choke-point.  If that were the only issue, I or other map creators could create some AHII 64x64 and 128x128 maps while HT is setting up the server and billing code changes.

A 64x64 map would be a fairly easy task.  I'd volunteer to help with that if it were the only road block.  I'm willing to put some sweat where my mouth is.  I'd commit to making at least two 64x64 AHII maps if HT wanted to give it a try.  There are a couple of good map builders here.  If each did one map, we could easily get at least 4 64x64 AHII maps made.  That would be enough to start with.

There is no reason it has to be an either-or.  You could try an AHII server and a set of limited free planes in AHIII.  Maybe that combination will create good synergy.

The problem is this community has a terminal case of intellectual constipation.  No plan is perfect and no idea doesn't have a flaw or a drawback.  So the negative neighbobs stew in their learned helplessness and say "that won't work"..."no point in trying that" ... "that won't make a difference"... to succeed you eventually have to be willing to take chances in life.  Not everything succeeds but learned helplessness not only is guaranteed to fail, but is a rotten way to live.  Fortune favors the bold.