Author Topic: 2007 Redeux?  (Read 11828 times)

Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #60 on: December 24, 2021, 11:52:23 AM »
It might feel that way to regular working folk. 

When you are just barely scraping by with a family and you rent is going from $800 to $1200/mo  at the same time gas to get to your chitty job is going from $3/gal to $5/gal to $8/gal.  When you had just retired and watch your 401k nest egg you spent a lifetime building drop %80 in value.  Yeah, it will eventually come back.  In 6-12 years.  Meanwhile you might have to sell some of it at pennies on the dollar to eat on waiting for it to recover. 

Yeah, life will continue, but a lot of people who did absolutely nothing wrong might end up have lives and retirements and dreams crushed.  Look at the shocking drop in birth rates.  Young people are not seeing a future they want to start a family in.  You would have thought with all that time stuck at home during the pandemic there would be a baby boom.  Nope.

except gas is not going to be 5 or 8 bucks rent around here is about 1100 if you can find an empty apartment.  jobs are plenty and pay a minimum of 15, most pay 17 or 18 if they want workers.  right now workers are demanding to be paid what they contribute not what the companies can get away with.  have a friend that complains that nobody wants to work anymore he needs a guy to check trucks and pays 850 a week for 6 12 hour days.  he can't find anybody because he wants to pay below minimum wage.  lots of other business doing the same thing.  that's really what sucks.


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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #61 on: December 24, 2021, 12:06:05 PM »
except gas is not going to be 5 or 8 bucks

Saved for future reference.  ;)

Gas here was over $4 in 2007 and that wasn't even hyper-inflation, just some normal vanilla inflation.  You're only thinking in terms of next week.  I'm talking about over the next 5 years.

Ask anyone in Venezuela or Argentina what hyper-inflation is like.  I hope you're right and I'm wrong.  But, I'd much rather see a stock crash than hyper-inflation if I had to choose one or the other.

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #62 on: December 24, 2021, 01:29:05 PM »
Saved for future reference.  ;)

Gas here was over $4 in 2007 and that wasn't even hyper-inflation, just some normal vanilla inflation.  You're only thinking in terms of next week.  I'm talking about over the next 5 years.

Ask anyone in Venezuela or Argentina what hyper-inflation is like.  I hope you're right and I'm wrong.  But, I'd much rather see a stock crash than hyper-inflation if I had to choose one or the other.

just in case you didn't know i moved from a country were hyper inflation was normal. that's not gonna happen here. not the right signs. you are overstating your assumptions.


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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #63 on: December 24, 2021, 02:33:03 PM »
that's not gonna happen here.

Let's hope you're right, but that sounds more like faith than analysis.

A lot of people seem to think the U.S.  has some magical properties that protect us from the negative economic outcomes other countries have suffered.  I don't think we do.   If we do the same kinds of things, I expect the same kinds of results.  We are bigger, so things might progress at a different pace, but that also means it harder to turn around from a bad trend.

We've gotten ourselves in a real pickle.  We have quite a bit of national debt that we can service with current revenue/spending because the interest load is so low.  We have massive corporate debt levels and margin trading at a historic high, because money is essentially being handed out for free.
We have been stacking up inflationary pressures since at least 2009 just waiting to get traction.  We have a stock market that is probably 70% over any sane valuation kept aloft almost purely by Fed money printing. 

The Fed has traditionally pegged neutral interest rate at ~4-4.5%.  Below that you are applying inflationary pressure, above that you are cooling inflation.  We are currently at 0.25%.  It's going to be extremely hard for the Fed to get a handle on inflation if all that built up pressure is finally getting traction.  Even getting to back to neutral rates would be a Herculean effort that I don't see how it could be accomplished without extremely painful consequences elsewhere.  When the pain starts they will wince and try and stop and hope for the best and inflation will then continue spiraling upward.  I don't think our Fed or Gov have the pain tolerance that Volker had.  It's going to be a Hobbesian choice.  How long do you think it would take them to be able to get rates even back to neutral?  How much do you think inflation could have climbed by then?

I don't think there are any obvious good solutions.  We are in the torturers chair and he is asking if we'd like to have our nuggets cut off or would we prefer to have our fingers and toes smashed with ball-peen hammers. "Uhhhh.  Can I have some time to think that over?"

Pain has already been baked into the cake at this point.  If we are lucky, we might be able to choose how the pain is allocated.  It's possible we could go on pumping and avoid the pain a little longer, but that then has to trade-off of the eventual pain just being worse (but that doesn't mean that won't be what they choose).   That doesn't make it go away, it just hangs over your head getting bigger.

I'd prefer a market crash.  That's easier for me personally to dodge.  I can move to cash and take the 10% inflation hit over the next two years rather than a 60-80% hit in the market.  Endemic high inflation is much harder to hide from for everyone including average blue collar folks.  It infects every goods or service in your life.

But one way or the other, the piper will eventually be paid.   IMHO.




 
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #64 on: December 24, 2021, 03:46:32 PM »

I'd prefer a market crash.  That's easier for me personally to dodge.  I can move to cash and take the 10% inflation hit over the next two years rather than a 60-80% hit in the market. 


I think you contradict yourself.


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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #65 on: December 24, 2021, 03:57:15 PM »
I think you contradict yourself.

Can you clarify?
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #66 on: December 24, 2021, 03:59:32 PM »
you prefer a market crash then something about a 60 hit on the market.

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #67 on: December 24, 2021, 05:38:56 PM »
you prefer a market crash then something about a 60 hit on the market.


OK.  So first we have to separate my personal interests from my fears for my fellow Americans in general.
Let's start with me, because my interests are most important.  :cool:


ME:

If the Fed REALLY tries to head-off inflation starting next year, and is either braver than I thought or simply mis-calculates the repercussions, I believe it can not help but cause a massive stock market collapse on the eventual level anywhere between 50-80%.  Historical metrics would suggest something ~70% I think.

I want to early retire in about 2 years.  I can't tolerate that level of hit to my investments, even if it recovers again in 6-12 years.   

I think inflation is just getting started and is already ~6.7% (it's really more than that but that's another discussion).  I expect it to continue accelerating.  It won't happen all in one day.  It might get up to 10% through next year.  Maybe 15% the next.  It may not be linear. I'm in the process of moving to all cash position for some amount of time until I get more clarity into how this historic unwinding of free Fed money effects the stock market.  I think I know what will happen, but I could be wrong. 

I realize that sitting in cash next year, I am accepting a loss due to inflation.  Maybe 10%.  If the Fed tries to raise a 1% and the market starts to craters 60%, my 10% inflation loss might look cheap in comparison and I'll soon start seeing much cheaper stocks to buy on the way down with the majority of my capital I preserved.  Yes, I’m a ghoul.  If the market collapses and I’ve preserved the majority of my capital, I will start picking through the rubble and dead bodies and find some really great deals to buy much more profitably.

If the Fed gives up and decides to print forever, I'll have to consider dipping back in by the end of the year, but maybe with a much more conservative hedged position than I have been in over recent years.  It’s nuts, but if the Fed it determined to work the air pump forever, I might as well see if I can siphon some more of that off, but from a careful position wearing my parachute at all times.  If they do that, I don’t think inflation will stop on it’s own so I see risks of hyper-inflation.  But I hate to be involved in the stock circus in this state because it would also be vary risky even with a parachute.

It’s easier for me to survive a stock market crash.  I’ll soon be completely liquid.  It’s hard to avoid, the  hyper-inflation without getting into stocks or some other asset (bonds, real estate, art, commodities, etc).  Problem there is, the deranged Fed policy has created a dangerous asset bubble in every class not cash.  We have an EVERYTHING BUBBLE!  There is no where safe to go.  It’s down to risk management and picking whether you prefer your nuggets cut off or your fingers and toes smashed into pulp.

So from my point of view, I’d prefer the Fed to make a heroic effort to tame inflation and crash the market (just as soon as I’m all cash ;)), at which point I could avoid hyper-inflation by moving back into the market at valuations that I consider a much more reasonable investment and use market gains to shield myself from inflation that might still not be tamed even after they’ve crashed the market.  (The market might have crashed before they’ve even gotten rates to 2% and they need ~4% to really pull stop inflation. )

Bottom line, I think there is far, far, far, far too much complacency in the market right now and many retail investors are not putting any thought into just how unprecedented a historic inflection point is that we are hurtling towards.  But now we have a timeline for important steps in that inflection.  Tapering begins in Jan.  Sometime Mar-May they will begin to attempt to reverse a long, deranged, unprecedented loose money policy and no one can be sure of how that unknown risk plays out.  But it scares the bejebus out of me. 

My best case is the Fed craters the market as soon as I’m all cash, and I then start moving back in to profit off the carnage and earn a positive return above any inflation.

If by the end of next year, inflation has not continued to increase and the Fed has successfully managed 3 rate hikes up to 1% and the market doesn’t blink, then I’ve mis-calculated somehow and I’ll have to stop and form a new plan.  I can’t sit in all cash for ever at any level of inflation.



For Average Americans:

Most average Americans are not heavily invested in the stock market.  The economy is not the stock market.  Wall Street can crater without necessary bringing Main Street down with it.  Main Street collapsing will usually crater Wall Street though.  Most average salaries have not increased in real terms (minus inflation) since the 80’s.   Average American’s have been getting proportionally poorer over the decades. 

In your grand-daddy’s day a hard working Joe (non-college) working a steady job could raise a family in a modest home with the wife staying home full time to raise the kids. That’s really hard to do nowadays.  Some do, but it’s a lot harder.

If I’m Elon Musk, 20% inflation might mean I can only afford two new yachts that year instead of three.   For an average Joe, it might mean I can’t afford to send my kid to college or maybe I lose my house in foreclosure.  Inflation is an insidious hidden tax on every single goods or service he buys.   It impoverishes him daily. 

He might not even notice a stock crash.

So for average American’s, I’d also prefer the taming inflation even if the cost is a smoldering stock market filled with wreckage.

Screw Elon.  If his stocks crash, he can sell one of his yachts.



So yeah, I’d prefer the Fed to do WHATEVER it takes to tame inflation.  That will almost certainly crash the stock market.  I'll prefer that over hyper-inflation, because I’ll be sitting in cash, licking my chops at the buying opportunities as soon as the smoke clears. ;)



     






« Last Edit: December 24, 2021, 05:54:54 PM by CptTrips »
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Offline Eagler

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #68 on: December 25, 2021, 07:32:44 AM »
That is if the dollar is still worth anything after the finacial explosion...

It's reserve currency status is struggling only held up by the globes mismanagement of the other currencies but if we continue to print trillions out of thin air while some other countries continue to buy gold to back their currency..won't matter how many dollars you have as they will be worthless...you will need a wheelbarrow to carry what  you need ...see 1930's Germany

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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #69 on: December 25, 2021, 01:45:08 PM »
trips, you cannot separate yourself from average americans.  you are them and they are you. like i said before, i come from a country where people didnt want to get paid in money, they to get paid in food stuff. something that had value. they saw their hourly rate become worthless from monday to friday. so they figured out to be paid in something that had value, like if they worked for a butcher they wanted 10 or 15 kilos of meat on friday instead of money.  that's something they could trade for other food.  but that was in a country where the president had more power than we have in this country.

we now have a situation where workers demand to be paid based on the service they provide.  wages are up and if employers dont pay enough to live on they go somewhere else.  that's why everything went up, workers have more money to spend and we have less stuff to buy due to the pandemic.  that is a major thing.

me and my wife normally go to her families house for xmas.  they asked us not to come, her aunts daughter had a stroke and they're afraid we could have exposed ourselves to covid since we spent last night at my cousin's house.  we are vaccinated and so is my cousin and her family.  we do the best to not expose ourselfs, i already told everybody about what covid did to my wife.  so they are being careful.  I think it is stupid of them on the other hand i understand.  there's always a chance we could be infected no matter how small the risk.  and that is what is affecting he economy.

it's not always just money, it's the people.  inflation will go up, people have more money for less stuff to buy. but that isnt the president's fault, not all of it.  we aren't printing money that what we have in gold.  and yes with the current interest it doesnt make buying bonds a good investment but we have things that need to be taken care of right now that will cost more money later on.

money is always wasted that is the truth in infrastructure there's a bridge near my house that I avoid at all costs, i know people that worked on it and knew of companies that got fired for subpar jobs.  so I avoid it, it may fall it may not, just dont want to be on it. but that's how everything is now a days which is the same that it was before. moved here in 79, us citizen by birth born in another country, seen lots of money wasted.  just look at the bridge to nowhere in alaska.


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Offline Eagler

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2021, 08:14:30 AM »
Semp

Not sure where you came from in 79 but I think you have it wrong in the US

Your barter system does not work in America..we are not setup for it to

We are all not the same and separate on our lifestyles and live choices

Some of us have worked our arses off and some look for the next easier way to get by with the most by doing the least..I know both types

Some workers don't want to work period here ..or not start at the bottom and work their way up..occupy wallstreet was that waste of time

When you raise minimum wage you raise prices on everything

Minimum wage was never designed to be a living wage...it was for kids to flip burgers doing summer break..

When you print trillions out of thin are, prices go up on everything

When you scare half the population into hating the other half for not doing whatever to avoid what is now the flu, prices will go up on everything

Those of us who have worked honesty for all of our lives can see through the bs, lies, exaggerations and corruption behind all of this

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Offline Brooke

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2021, 02:13:10 PM »
Today, the financial situation is not like the 1970's.

We had big inflation in the 1970's, but the amount of debt was drastically less than today.  So Volcker could quit printing money, jack up interest rates to the teens, and kill the inflation; and government could still pay its bills.

In 1970, national debt was $370 billion, which was 27% of GDP.  Today, the US national debt (what is owed on T notes, T bills, etc.) is 78 times bigger, $29 trillion, which is 127% of GDP. 

Today, the US spends $400 billion/year to service this debt with an average interest rate of 1.5%.  That's with interest rates at historical lows.  If interest rates go up even a little, you can't tax enough to pay it.  So, you have to keep interest rates at historical lows, which leads to inflation; or you have to print money to pay the debt, which leads to inflation.  Or you outright default on it, or restructure it (i.e., "I'll pay you less and/or later.")

Or, you grow your GDP enough so that the debt/GDP does down.  But as shown in "This Time Is Different: Eight Centuries of Financial Folly," by economists Reinhart and Rogoff, once you are above about 90% debt/GDP, nations haven't historically been able to grow their way out of debt -- leaving default, inflation, and restructuring as path forward.

None of this stuff is new.  I don't know if there has ever been a nation that didn't eventually wreck its currency through debasement/inflation.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2021, 02:22:01 PM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2021, 02:18:23 PM »
For anyone wanting a great book on economics -- and I wish everyone in the world would read it, would lead to a great improvement in world governance:

Economics in One Lesson, by Hazlitt

https://www.amazon.com/Economics-in-One-Lesson-audiobook/dp/B00005459Y/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1G5ZMU44PM8VJ&keywords=economics+in+one+lesson&qid=1640549850&sprefix=economics+in+one+lesson%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-1

Offline Brooke

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #73 on: December 26, 2021, 02:33:29 PM »
One problem in all of this, to me, is that I don't know if we will have a gigantic financial crash, then huge inflation, or just straight into huge inflation.  I don't think things will be something smooth indefinitely into the future.

Inflation means own gold, silver, a house, commodities -- but not cash.

Gigantic financial crash means own cash.

The hardest to get right, and the most potential to ruin the most people, is large inflation, then gigantic crash, then huge inflation.  So I guess that is my base assumption of what will happen.

Offline guncrasher

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Re: 2007 Redeux?
« Reply #74 on: December 26, 2021, 02:36:06 PM »
minimum wage was designed so a father could provide for his family.

kids flipping burgers was not a summer job, I worked at a pizza place thru high-school, it allowed me to pay 75% of rent for our family. i made from 100 to 200 every 2 weeks. and I lived like a king in hischool, went to inn out almost every day for lunch. now I can't stand it.

as for the barter system that's what we had. I only wrote about it because I saw the signs when I was young.  the signs aren't here.

the city where I live has a shortage of housing. looks like several cities around were competing in building warehouses. that caused the housing problem. nobody wants to work at minimum wage because there's jobs that pay more, if they want workers.

I consider that a good sign. if course there's people that would rather not work, always have always will.  but that's not what I see in h the apartment complex where I live. everybody has at least 1 job, some have 2.  a bit different from last year when people were home.

economy looks healthy and some companies still think they can do as they wish. pork is one example.  they had years to change according to the law, they didn't, more they won't be able to sell here. the chicken and veal companies changed according to the law years ago. but pork industry decided not to.


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.